ff_badlands

[o_stino]

Originally Posted by DiePepsi

to me, it looks totally out of place and just wrong. To my eye, you are over using the displacement... and making it look like the whole map is made out of mud... and that you are going to slip and slide around rather then actualy be on solid ground.

Try to think about using displacements as "DETAIL" rather then your actual map. Most roads and walkways are made to be ... flat and of an equal size. The only time they become rounded or uneven is with massive use over years of trafic... and then it has to at least be heavy trafic.

I think it would look about 500 times better, if you focused less on what you can do with displacements... and more on just using them for detail.

Hell, I cant think of one game (including farcry) that tried to use displacements that heavly... well maybe ArmyMen for the N64

Uno has the right idea, for a heavy displacement outdoor area. The pathways themselves are extra square brushes... so you can have all the jello, and still have usable soild feeling(and visualy) walkways.

I can only see one picture (the one that was tested in the FF mod) cause the rest are busted.

the pathways (bridges ..) are solid brushes, terrain are displacements, if i'm going to turn everything into solid bsp meshes (sorry brushes in source)
it wil come up with some problems:
1: maxbrushes error from the compiler (i'm almost there...)
2: many guys will complain about it: to much like hl1 architecture/brushwork, read one of the topics here, about bumpy floors,
3: displacements don't block vis, so i can use simple brushes underneath them to do that, (ok this can eventualy be fixed with func_details)
4: don't complain about lag, i have only 150 fps outdoor, and that wil dramatically drop if i change all those cheap displacements into brushes


and i've seen the concept drawing that caesium made, and he wants to make from the 3 canyons one big canyon, so i want some opinions about that to.
if i get much reactions like that whouln't be badlands anymore, then i will consider the idea to be done in badlands2.

[o_diepepsi]

can you relink the other pictures that are 404?

I didnt say to convert all the dispalcements to world brushes. Just to invest more time in making them details to the map rather then the whole map (outdoor wise)

Its a big task to do, the remake of that map, and the correct displacement work. I wish you all the best of luck!

[Circuitous]

Displacements aren't strictly for detail, they're for creating, among other things, natural-looking terrain. Most of his map happens to be terrain, so he should use it for these purposes. They're cheaper to render than world brushes, too, if all the jargon flying around on these forums is to be believed. He's better off leaving them as such.

[o_diepepsi]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Displacements aren't strictly for detail, they're for creating, among other things, natural-looking terrain. Most of his map happens to be terrain, so he should use it for these purposes. They're cheaper to render than world brushes, too, if all the jargon flying around on these forums is to be believed. He's better off leaving them as such.

Cheaper then world brushes for the same effect correct?

AKA, a flat wall, would still be better rendered by a flag world brush... thens a lvl 2 detail dispalcement of the same size?

I scrolled back throught this topic and found some of the screenshots of before the dispalcements got used so heavly.

Personaly I like it better, before the displacements and all the crazy jello was input to the map. I can understand the want, to replicate the grand canyon. However, lets keep in mind the size. The *GRAND* Canyon is HUGE. And it looks like the detail, is beind squished to fit into the size of this map. Giving us a shallow canyon that could only be formed with water the declined at a rate of say... 1" per ever few years (or rose)

I commend this mapper for his ability to work with peoples comments to try and shape the map into something better. Keep it up

[o_nezumi]

Originally Posted by DiePepsi

a flat wall, would still be better rendered by a flag world brush... thens a lvl 2 detail dispalcement of the same size.

Baaaaarely. An entire displacement renders basically as fast as a single polygon. It's not really about the number of polies, but about the number of calls you make to the graphics card. The more triangles you can make with one call the better. A displacement is drawn with 1 call. A big bunch of points are sent to the graphics card as a mesh. A single brush face is probably sent all at once as a fan, strip, mesh or list (it doesn't really matter which for 2 triangles), as one call. So it really isn't necessarily any faster.

[o_diepepsi]

Originally Posted by Nezumi

Baaaaarely. An entire displacement renders basically as fast as a single polygon. It's not really about the number of polies, but about the number of calls you make to the graphics card. The more triangles you can make with one call the better. A displacement is drawn with 1 call. A big bunch of points are sent to the graphics card as a mesh. A single brush face is probably sent all at once as a fan, strip, mesh or list (it doesn't really matter which for 2 triangles), as one call. So it really isn't necessarily any faster.

Interesting... that would mean that the best performance would come from a map made totaly of displacements, put on top of world brushes(for vis action only)

doesnt seem to be how hl2/and-mods did it. So thats why I would question that. I am new to the hl2 engine, and so I could believe it. Thanks!

[o_own3r]

Originally Posted by DiePepsi

Interesting... that would mean that the best performance would come from a map made totaly of displacements, put on top of world brushes(for vis action only)

I think what valve said is sumwhat misleading; displacements are 'cheap' when set to "power 2" but it does lag when theres alot of them at higher powers like 3 and 4. This is because there are alot of triangles to be processed as the mesh is finer. When that is combined with high poly models and large player numbers it doesnt look quite so rosy for displacements. Try to keep their powers to a minimum.

[o_nezumi]

Most maps are mostly flat surfaces. You have to have a lot of real brushes around to do the vis blocking and you may as well not have displacements over them. This is why maps aren't made completely out of displacements.

[o_rp]

Someone has put a nice article on VDC, you might want to give it a look:
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w...tures_Creation

[o_stino]

Originally Posted by Own3r

I think what valve said is sumwhat misleading; displacements are 'cheap' when set to "power 2" but it does lag when theres alot of them at higher powers like 3 and 4. This is because there are alot of triangles to be processed as the mesh is finer. When that is combined with high poly models and large player numbers it doesnt look quite so rosy for displacements. Try to keep their powers to a minimum.

i have a power of 2
but becouse of rad you cant mix up displacements and brushes, they are lit differently ..

[o_stino]

Originally Posted by RP

Someone has put a nice article on VDC, you might want to give it a look:
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w...tures_Creation

nvidea tools , photoshop crashes when i install them )

[o_stino]

Originally Posted by DiePepsi

Interesting... that would mean that the best performance would come from a map made totaly of displacements, put on top of world brushes(for vis action only)

doesnt seem to be how hl2/and-mods did it. So thats why I would question that. I am new to the hl2 engine, and so I could believe it. Thanks!

thats only for terrain, if something has to be totally flat, then it would be cheaper to use brushes brush: 2 triangles per face, displacement 25 (donno if this right, i tought 5 by 5 with a power of 2, could be totally wrong counted) triangles per face , but if you want bumpy terrain and you go make it with 25 brush faces to get it bumpy, then you should use displacements,

[o_stino]

damd, whats wrong with thisforum, slow and posts everything double..

[o_stino]

Originally Posted by DiePepsi

Interesting... that would mean that the best performance would come from a map made totaly of displacements, put on top of world brushes(for vis action only)

doesnt seem to be how hl2/and-mods did it. So thats why I would question that. I am new to the hl2 engine, and so I could believe it. Thanks!

thats only for terrain, if something has to be totally flat, then it would be cheaper to use brushes brush: 2 triangles per face, displacement 25 (donno if this right, i tought 5 by 5 with a power of 2, could be totally wrong counted) triangles per face , but if you want bumpy terrain and you go make it with 25 brush faces to get it bumpy, then you should use displacements,

and also for texture blending :d

[o_diepepsi]

What I ment about world brushes was.

Say you took the badlands.BSP (from TFC) and converted it to a badlands.map. Then loaded it up in Hammer, and looked at the walls in the outdoor area of the map.

They are made of world brushes, and are mainly flat (and very HL1 looking, hehe)

Then I would say, from THAT point, add extra displacemnets around the bottom of the walls and at the top (and at random to the center of the wall.) Raise and lower the world brushes for a staggered feel and keep adding dispalcements at key areas on top of the world brushes. So at some places you still had standard flat surfaces. And others you had deformed areas ect.

So I wasnt saying to make the walls out of ONLY world brushes, but to base them off world brushes and use dispacments as details. So they would have a more shaped and solid feel to them vs what I feel is a jello look.

I know that making a realistic looking and FEELING displacement canyon is a HUGE job, and I think you definitly have some great ideas (esp that 3d map) for it

Cheers!

[o_own3r]

Originally Posted by DiePepsi

What I ment about world brushes was.

Say you took the badlands.BSP (from TFC) and converted it to a badlands.map. Then loaded it up in Hammer, and looked at the walls in the outdoor area of the map.

They are made of world brushes, and are mainly flat (and very HL1 looking, hehe)

Then I would say, from THAT point, add extra displacemnets around the bottom of the walls and at the top (and at random to the center of the wall.) Raise and lower the world brushes for a staggered feel and keep adding dispalcements at key areas on top of the world brushes. So at some places you still had standard flat surfaces. And others you had deformed areas ect.

So I wasnt saying to make the walls out of ONLY world brushes, but to base them off world brushes and use dispacments as details. So they would have a more shaped and solid feel to them vs what I feel is a jello look.

I know that making a realistic looking and FEELING displacement canyon is a HUGE job, and I think you definitly have some great ideas (esp that 3d map) for it

Cheers!

This is bad practice, seriously just make it out of displacements but dont do as much subdevision, and use a smaller radius in places, theres also the possiblity of having more jagged displacements comming through from behind the main displacements to add some more detail.

[o_stino]

like i said: lighting on brushes and displacements is different, you whould see the edge of the displacement verry good!

and being solid doesnt mean looking solid

here are some new screens from another cubemap i've tried: imagine this with steep paralax mapping

(different fov's on this screens, i was experimenting to get a little more on 1 screenshot :d, ande some of the textures have to be realigned :d)

[o_alligator]

The first screen shot looks kinda of weird to me...
What is that on the bottom right corner on the second screen shot?
That rock texture is really nice in my opinion - I believe it fits well for this map.
I must say that this is coming along nicely. Nice job!
(and yea, I bet it would be better looking once you correctly align the textures)

[o_bokko]

That rock texture is much, much better.

[o_mikequist]

Yea but learn to align the textures properly PLEASEEE.

Edit: Nice photoshop btw. Except the Shield and Health are backwards...