Market Research - Competative Gamers: Make your voice known

[Scuzzy]

This is a tangent off another thread. Let's assume for a minute that FF is giving up on the newbie gamer and going to limit the marketing and design of the game only for the competative gamer.

For those of you that are competative gamers and are not playing FF, why aren't you playing and what needs to be done to attract you to the game?

The goal of this thread is two fold:

1) Determine how big the market is
2) Learn what needs to be done to attract them

Scuzzy

[Credge]

Edit: Nevermind, I read words wrong.

[KubeDawg]

bhop, and beefed up frag grenades would be the 2 most important factors for me to want to play competitively.

[Zydell]

Unsure when someone is a competitive player but I'm quite sure that I used to be. I am not playing Fortress Forever because I'm bored with the TFC concept, not interested in competitive/league play anymore and because TF2 is (still) a lot of fun, runs better on my old laptop etc. I'll give it another try soon. I don't miss the bhop, I do miss being able to do whatever I want with whatever class I play in TF2 (I mean some classes can't even take down SGS in TF2, that's stupid). Plus, FF didn't feel finished when I first played it.

People are talking so much about marketing FF so it hits the public, that's imho futile and stupid.

[Digital_Ghost]

Originally Posted by Zydell

Unsure when someone is a competitive player but I'm quite sure that I used to be. I am not playing Fortress Forever because I'm bored with the TFC concept, not interested in competitive/league play anymore and because TF2 is (still) a lot of fun, runs better on my old laptop etc. I'll give it another try soon. I don't miss the bhop, I do miss being able to do whatever I want with whatever class I play in TF2 (I mean some classes can't even take down SGS in TF2, that's stupid). Plus, FF didn't feel finished when I first played it.
People are talking so much about marketing FF so it hits the public, that's imho futile and stupid.

Thats because its a "BETA"...give the game a chance....

[Foxtrick]

The very first thing anyone wants to see for any advanced FPS styled game, is existing competition. So you need someone, in my opinion to establish a league or competitive ladder that will encourage people. Something that sets some kind of trend, that in theory should have been there earlier but still - better late then never.

Doesnt matter if its poorly run, exploitable etc, it just has to be there, like UKTFCL STA etc was at the beginning.

Oh, I would say the potential market is 50,000, CS still has a huge segment, and so does TF2. As they are Valve's two babies, you wont really ever over shadow them, but leech from them? certainly. How realistic that figure is, is dependant on everything ofcourse. For now, to go back to 500 active players would be nice. And then go from there.

It would be handy to also, get the old TFC players back to help populate the place. Again, thats by doing a league. Everything seems to interelate, everyone needs other people to play with, but people have to be attracted FIRST

[Scuzzy]

Fox,
Is that how competitive gamers usually work? They look for a league, see they can compete, and then download the game to see what it's like. I understand that you believe competitive players need existing competition, but the players aren't there for it. We (according to some) are marketing to competitive players before others are playing the game. They want find a way to accomplish that without a bunch of non-competitive players using the game.

Kube,
You're the first to really suggest changes to the game, you said bhop, are you saying it needs to be increased, decreased? What?

Scuzzy

[Vicious]

I think the defensive classes need to be on par with the offensive classes. We're talking about making the O easier with improved bhop etc. but what about the sgs that ALREADY can't take out a medic? If we make the offense too powerfull, it won't be a challenge, it'll be a cap race.

I, as an engy, would like to see improvements to the class and its equipment. Increased range and speed of SGs and I like the ideas that have been tossed around for the dispensers.

[yfni_]

I used to be a competitive gamer. And I was hoping to start playing again when FF arrived. But the fact of the matter is that it arrived too late. I finished uni and priorities / life changed...

I expect the same thing happened to most of the other TFC players. I was there @ it's birth (competitive tfc gaming). So I have seen it all....

My point is you can't market to a market that's no longer there. You should 'sell' it to 14 to 18 year olds of the world. Those guys have the time to play 7 days per week. 3 hours at a time.

[fireb0rn]

Scuzzy, I like that way you're looking at this, but I think you're making a mistake in believing that there's a public market to even attract in the first place. I'll give my opinion.

For the competitive player I think there are a few things that should be done:

1) Adjust the variable which controls how much speed is lost when performing a jump and above the bunnyhop speed cap. Do not change it to the way it was in TFC where you lost all your speed when above the speed cap. Simply raise the amount of speed lost when you're above the speed cap and bunnyhopping.

2) To compensate for this, raise the bunnyhop cap to an area around 150%.

3) Increase the damage which regular grenades do (primarily) in order to compensate the defensive player for this change.

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Fox,
Is that how competitive gamers usually work? They look for a league, see they can compete, and then download the game to see what it's like. I understand that you believe competitive players need existing competition, but the players aren't there for it. We (according to some) are marketing to competitive players before others are playing the game. They want find a way to accomplish that without a bunch of non-competitive players using the game.

I don't think the question should be "what usually works" but instead "what would work in this situation?"

Also, what makes you believe that FF cannot have competitive games without non-competitive players? There's a direct source of competitive players that FF has not taken advantage of because so many players seem afraid they won't appeal to those who are non-competitive.

[SoBe Green]

Honestly for me its the whole point/objective system that is highly flawed. Regardless of how well my team is doing it isn't really reflected very heavily. Fortress Points really mean nothing.

TF2 is appealing in CTF because there is a cap limit. When one team hits that limit it is considered as a win for that team for one round. It provides a much more smooth experience. If your team got wiped in the first round you can then figure out what to do differently for the second round. In FF and TFC it was pretty much nonstop chaos. One team scores, the other team scores, sometimes neither team score.

Round time - It is needed. A round based system is needed badly. When a new round starts all players see progress each team made or didn't make. Dustbowl is appealing to most players in the competitive scene because their team makes progress. In CTF play neither team makes progress other than a point being added to the team score over and over for flag captures. DoD, CS, TF2, NS, and more all have some kind of round based system at play. This makes competitive gaming more organized. Teams could do things like scout rush hardcore in the first two rounds then turtle it up. Thats a bland strategy but just an example. It allows a team to literally wear down the other team or make you consider what the other team has class wise before just running on kamikaze missions until you pull the flag out. It also forces players to play harder when that round timer starts getting low. It forces the O to push hard and the D to stay on their feet.

Sudden death - I love the idea of sudden death. I'm not saying we need players to quit respawning. But say you have 2fort. Sudden death kicks in and neither team has capped so far. Both flags spawn at the middle of the map. The objective is to now bring your flag to the enemy teams flag room. Really any kind of tie breaker mode is great. Nobody loves a draw and nobody really loves to have overtime that every league will likely play differently. I don't think FF is (as of now) suited for no respawn sudden death but the ideas for each map are really limitless on what could be done to break a tie.

Really anything that forces most leagues to play by some staple rules will greatly enhance competitive play. Things like overtime, class limits, and OvO make the game more enjoyable if it is hard coded into the game. Players should be able to pick a league that suits them rather than be forced to play in the "popular" league. CAL had a TFC league and everyone laughed at it because they didn't play by the same rules as the more popular TFC leagues. The reality is CAL could have single handedly carried TFC in those days but nobody (even to this day) agrees on all rules for playing TFC competitively.

Some rules will always be different. But as long as the major things that can greatly change how its played are agreed upon there will be major success.

[Iggy]

No cap limit, but I could see the game being divided into sections.... similar to a football game. 30 minutes of play, then everyone locked in respawn for, say, 1 minute(kinda like pre-match, but in the middle of the match)...allow the teams to confer a little if they want, then back to the mayhem. It has a possibility.
I don't know how well this concept will work in pubs, but for leage play, well, wait a sec...they already split matches into rounds.

Your idea for sudden-death......I do like this one. Getting it from the middle of the map(bridge on 2fort, for example) to the ENEMY flag room is a novel idea, and not a feat easily accomplished.

O v O is illegal in leagues for several reasons, not the least of which is that most O players are either medics or scouts, and have low enough health when facing D players that are better in not only armament, but health and armour as well. Yard D, while not something you mentioned but, is along the same lines. It's a foolish idea, because it doesn't take much to get around D players playing yard D, and set up for a cap-fest. One O player keeps making runs on the flag in the yard, while the others make a bee-line for the flags origin point...either to run roughshod when the flag goes back, or is eventually capped.

[StatisticZ]

Originally Posted by Iggy

O v O is illegal in leagues for several reasons

What do you mean it's illegal? The way you said it confuses me, in leagues you can have a few players playing O against the other team that has a few running O while the rest plays D, usually more have to play D than O. But Offense cannot try to combat each other, they have to just leave each other alone. So I'm guessing you mean O can't try to kill O.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by [StatisticZ]

What do you mean it's illegal? The way you said it confuses me, in leagues you can have a few players playing O against the other team that has a few running O while the rest plays D, usually more have to play D than O. But Offense cannot try to combat each other, they have to just leave each other alone. So I'm guessing you mean O can't try to kill O.

I've always heard OvO refer to offense attacking other offense.

[Iggy]

Right. No O v O means Offensive players can't shoot at Offensive players. No Offense versus Offense. It's illegal in leagues, and that's the way it should be. Imagine how "fun" it would be, getting into the enemy base with 17/30(health/armour) as a scout. An SG would only have to glance in your general direction to kill you. Nevermind what a skilled Solly/HW/Demo could do to you.

[StatisticZ]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Right. No O v O means Offensive players can't shoot at Offensive players. No Offense versus Offense. It's illegal in leagues, and that's the way it should be. Imagine how "fun" it would be, getting into the enemy base with 17/30(health/armour) as a scout. An SG would only have to glance in your general direction to kill you. Nevermind what a skilled Solly/HW/Demo could do to you.

I thought that's what you meant.

[Ihmhi]

To work in league play, higher BHOP will be needed. I was never able to bhop, and I can't tell if I am bhopping or not. It doesn't help that the speedometer doesn't work.

In the beta it was at like... 125, and it worked great. Every single tester said it was pretty much fine, but then the devs inexplicably dialed it down and never brought it back up.

A game can have high-end play and newbie play. They are not mutually exclusive.

The most important things are ease of use and depth of skill. For example, it is very easy to understand and use the Sniper Rifle. Zoom in with right click (by default), charge up, and shoot. But is it easy to get a headshot while a Scout is concing through the air across ff_well's yard? No. That is where the depth of skill comes in.

There are a lot of things in this game where there is depth of skill but no ease of use and vice versa, and that is one of the biggest problems.

Also for league play, well... you have to take advice from experienced players in each class. I have heard a LOT of complaints about speed sniping being off in FF. I can speed snipe okay in TFC, and I have to agree that it is not up to par in FF.

[Credge]

While I am going to be playing FF competitively (mainly because it's better than TFC), there are a few things that have continued to make the experience thus far less than stellar.

There needs to be changes made to things like BHop... making the scout more than just the fastest class by a little as well as improving the overall speed of the medic and spy.

The SG needs to be able to shoot if it looks on to someone, currently I can sit under an SG that is parked above me and drain it of its ammo.

The HW needs increased damage or increased accuracy as the super nailgun is more accurate and does more damage.

The soldiers nail grenade needs to be changed or removed. The number of nails is pathetic and the explosion is the only thing worth using. The problem, though, is that the timer on it sucks and makes it hard to do anything besides spam it and hope. Either increase the damage of nails, increase the number of nails, increase the time that the grenade lasts before exploding, or completely remove it and replace it with something else.

The medic and spy need their super nailgun toned down or removed. Perhaps leaving the nailgun on the spy (making him the better DM'er) and replacing the medics nailgun with something more... medicy...

The spy needs a secondary fire on his pistol that does something great. Anything from disabling a SG for a short period of time to giving the hallucinogenic effect of the spy grenade.

The sniper needs revamped entirely. He's not appealing in league play. He's not appealing in pub play. He's simply not appealing. He doesn't fit in with the over-the-top feel of TF games. He needs to be X-TREME or replaced. All he does in pubs is make everyone else go sniper and all he does in leagues is get laughed at.

Get rid of the scouts radar ability. It's terrible. When used it lags the piss out of you and the read out it gives is so small it makes me not give a crap. If you play in leagues then you will know where the enemy is as they play positions. In pubs it doesn't matter as there are simply way to many people to care about the location of the enemy. Give him a right click ability that increases his speed... or something useful.

Allow the pyro to get to level 3 flames by simply using his flamethrower. Allow the other weapons to greatly decrease the time it takes to reach level 3, but don't force somebody to use all 3 weapons (especially the grenades) to reach maximum effectiveness. It's a cool idea, but a bad game design that simply makes the pyro not effective.

Medics and demos are the only fine classes.

[KubeDawg]

K I dunno about you guys, but I like feeling 1337, k? So yes, pl0x bring back awesome bhopping and beefed up man grenades.

If you still don't understand my train of thought, Scuzzy, I shall refer thee to thy Unagi POWA Unagi thread in teh chat secshun.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Credge

Allow the pyro to get to level 3 flames by simply using his flamethrower. Allow the other weapons to greatly decrease the time it takes to reach level 3, but don't force somebody to use all 3 weapons (especially the grenades) to reach maximum effectiveness. It's a cool idea, but a bad game design that simply makes the pyro not effective.

I'd have to disagree whole heartedly with that one. An effective pyro can get level 3 in 1-2 seconds (or a fraction of a second if done right). Moving it over to only the flamethrower would increase the time it takes to get level 3, as there would be a minimum time.

The pyro should be added to your list of 'fine classes' in my opinion.

If any changes are to take place, it should be to just add your suggestion to what is already there; allow the flamethrower, after a certain amount of time, to get someone to level 2 (and then the IC to get him to level 3).