Usage of Spy's gas grenades

[battery]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

It's stupid to spam the enemy spawn for kills, because anyone you frag will come back in 10 seconds and you'll quickly die. For the same reason, trying to take over (camp, build sentries) the enemy base is bad sportsmanship. To do it you have to completely overpower or outskill the enemy, and that is very frustrating for the people who, like you, are attempting to have a good time. If I'm on a team that is completely smashing the enemy and I think it's unfair, I'll switch teams.

However a gas grenade at the spawn door is ok with me. If I wait the five seconds for it to clear and allow you to get away, that's my fault.

I will probably switch over to the trapped team, too. but not because I think it is unfair to completely overpower the enemy. Maps in FF are largely symmetrical. Given the teams are not heavily stacked, one must make some bad, bad strategic error to hand over control of his own base. The wrong-doer is not the winning team, but the losing team. Their bad decisions lower the challenge level for their opponent, and create a rather helpless situation for themselves.

I see this as an opportunity to use/develop my leadership skill. I can switch over, see what they are doing wrong, and attempt to convince them to change. That's fun for me to do.
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Vaporizer Chamomile

[Crazycarl]

It doesn't really matter to me whose fault it is. If half the people on the server are having a shitty time then I am unhappy. And I tend to think that anyone who doesn't feel the same way is not cool.

[Desyphur]

Now you're ignoring my posts.

[A Boojum Snark]

Originally Posted by battery

I agree with this definition of sportmanship. Where did you get it from. Please provide reference.

From the dictionary.

Originally Posted by battery

This is your own interpretation of sportmanship. I cannot agree with it as stated. You have just told us your own idea of fairness, your own idea of respectfulness, and your own idea of graciousness. They are up for dispute. Please elaborate.

I never mentioned fair, because "fair" IS a more disputable and opinionated thing.
The spawn room door is a barrier between the field of play and non-play. This is why there are things to prevent grenades inside it, along with devices which kill the opposing team: it is off limits to the play of the game.

It is very close to spawn camping, where you have access to the actual spawn location and wait for people to appear, then kill them. Death is non-play, respawning passes you through the barrier into the field of play. Preventing or inhibiting your opponent from passing that barrier from non-play to play without being hindered in any way is unsportsmanlike.
In both cases there is nothing the play can do about other than die or wait for the danger to pass. Both options leave the player out of play at a time they should be in.

Race car drivers stay in order in the starting block or while the pace car is driving. Hockey players fight on the ice, not on the bench or the door from it to the ice. Runners pass each other, not knock each other down. Pitchers don't throw baseballs at the batters before they reach the plate. Defensive linemen don't charge the quarterback until the ball is snapped.
All are examples of respecting your opponent and letting them pass the barrier from non-play to play unhindered so they may compete properly.

[Arx]

Spamming spawns is never the way. Spamming RESUPLIES is definatly a very positive manouver. Make sure you get what the difference between a resuply and a respawn is. If it is a starting location (yes, this includes the door that leads out of that location) that is a spawn.

The fact is, map makers don't want to have respawns. Respawn's are a huge problem, they encourage spam which makes the game less desireable. But the game NEEDS to have them. There has to be some point from which a newly spawned player enters the combat area of the map.

A game like CS doesn't really have this problem, as both teams spawn at the same time in different locations.

Fortress Forever is a continuously flowing game. Players respawn while other players are alive. In order to make the game competitive and enjoyable, there has to be some little ettiquette rules reguarding piping, spamming these respawns. It's not fair that a player should HAVE to exit through your gas grenades, pipe trap or sentry gun in order to simply PLAY THE GAME.

If you had a game where the objective was to completly lock the other team down inside their respawn, the game would not be much fun at all. As soon as one team overpowers the other, thats it, couple of sentry guns, few pipe traps, heavy's shooting at the door, dispensers and medics for resuplies. The other team would spend a long time just repeatedly dieing and being overwhelmed by spam.

Sure, it could potentially be a very effective strategy, but it also discourages the actual style of gameplay the mod is trying to promote. It all depends on if you are trying to "win at all costs" or if you are looking for a nice, fun, equally competitive game.

The other way to put it, is do you want to be a dick or not?

*edit* one last thing. It may only see like a simple gas grenade that does 1 damage and has a few annoying effects, but would spamming them at the resuply still be ok if they did 10 damage a second? what about 100 damage a second? It doesn't matter the effects or what the damage output is, if a player is forced to pass through itin order to enter the combat zone, it is unfair but more importantly, un-enjoyable.

If you don't beleive me, i'm sure i could quickly write up a mod for this mod that changes the gas grenades to 500 damage a nano second, 1 minute effect and play a map with 1 respawn exit. let's see how enjoyable the game becomes. First person to die won't be able to leave their spawn for 4 minutes. That's worse than waiting for a spawn AFK on CS.

*edit 2* What the guy above me said is perfect. Why would a pitcher have to wait until the other player is on his mark before he pitches? Surely it would make more sense for him to throw a strike before he even gets to the mark? Not even talking about professional baseball here. Professional baseball has rules, a lot like league play for a computer game, but does that mean that in a knock around at the park, the pitcher should throw pitches before his opposition gets there? No, of course not, he needs to actually get into position before the competition can start in order to make it fair.... and fun.

[battery]

Arx, you are quite right in pointing out that tactics depends whether you want to "win at all costs", or "have an equitable fun".

As good players, we should observe the general climate of the server. In most public servers where random people play, I'd say do whatever within server rules to win. It makes little sense to be nice, since someone will quickly take advantage of it. In a more cordial or professional settings, you should be careful. Know that your reputation is on the line. Balance your ambition to win and the need for social acceptance.


You keep on comparing FF to sports, but I tend to see FF as a war game. In a war, you try to make the playing field as uneven as you can (hopefully in your favor). The only moment when game should be even is time 0:00. After that, you leave the opponent with no breathing room. You disrupt their supply line, push them back, round them up, and capture their flag/capital city. ~~~NOTHING PERSONAL for doing that~~~.I am sure a lot other players see FF as war, not competitive sports. So in one way, how one plays also depends on how one views the game: a war simulation or a cyber sport. Not necessary between being a dick or being nice.
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Ipad Cases

[Desyphur]

It's not a war game. It's not a war simulator. Red Orchesta is a war game. Even they don't support spawn spamming.

[Meathook]

can we have a rule about no random shooting of teammates as a spy check? seems like with all this spam talk, that one gets left out.

[battery]

Originally Posted by Meathook

can we have a rule about no random shooting of teammates as a spy check? seems like with all this spam talk, that one gets left out.

Yeah, random spy check is a type of spamming too. It goes against the intended spirit of the game. Spies are supposed to be able to blend in with the opponents. He should be able to keep his cover unless he does something suspicious, like walking up to sentry, entering flag room, holding the wrong weapon, running in the wrong direction, or idling around. In other words, a spy should not be uncovered as long as he is being a good actor. Random spy check ruins that. If someone policy is to shoot every teammate he sees, with or without knowing a spy is around, then the spy will have to abandon stealth. He may instead choose to use the gas grenade and frag grenade more aggressively. Spy is comparable to medic when it comes to close quarter combat. But of course, some of you may argue this should not be allowed, since spy is not SUPPOSED to start a fight in your face...annoying.
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Black Granny

[Phisionary]

I'm generally in agreement with battery on this issue.

I think far too many server admins feel the need to pick-and-choose the game features they like and discriminate against the rest. The game has been designed a certain way, and each class has been given certain skills. For example, it is my feeling that the Pyros main function in the game is to confuse and disrupt. The soldier is for most purposes a better pure offensive class, but the Pyro can really throw a wrench in either the offense or defense of the enemy team. An enemy on fire is an enemy less effective. Same goes for the medic's infection. It's not really a very useful weapon in itself, but it gets the enemy running away from you, and can easily decimate an attacking force. If you can infect them at their front door, they'll be dead before they reach your base.

I was playing aardvark recently, and a Scout had just speedcapped the flag about 5 consecutive times. I went on D as an Engy and built a dispenser in front of the security switch. The Scout was complaining about it not being fair to do that, because he couldn't press the switch. Of course I disagreed, and called it defense. I was making use of the tools of the game to maximize my advantage. I had a weapon and I used it.

I was playing congestus and a player was dropping Detpacks down on the spawn area. Occasionally, they would get a big kill. Some admins cried foul, whining about them using their weapons effectively. If you get killed coming out, so what! Spawn again, in like, 0.5 seconds, and come out again and kill the Demoman that planted it! It's not that big of a deal.

My only limited defense of the idea of 'fairness' and 'sportsmanship' is perhaps to limit spamming to areas outside of the spawn. This is complicated by the way in which spawns are prominently featured on many maps. It is a factor of map design to make a spawn area in any particular way. On aardvark, spawns are made protected. The enemy team cannot enter them in any circumstance. That is a design decision for the mapper. In well, you can hide inside the spawn by the door and effectively evade the miniturrets. That may just be an oversight, but is an aspect of the levels design. I feel that exploiting that aspect of the game to it's fullest is completely reasonable. I have, on occasion, hid in the enemy spawn on well and infected players coming out. I feel a bit dirty, I admit, but I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong about it. Some people have complained that I, as a Pyro, was spamming the spawn entrances on well. What kind of shit is that? Their are two spawn entrances on well. They are immediately to either side of the primary base entrance. To say 'don't spam the spawn entrances' is like saying 'don't throw grenades if you are attacking'. Same thing goes for shutdown2.

However, there are certain aspects that I personally feel are perfectly reasonable choices for an server admin to make. For example, spies in the respawn, stabbing people as they come out. Or people that purposefully camp the respawn, and toss grenades inside. In some cases, like on the aardvark sniper deck, I feel this is fair play. Unchecked sniping on aardvark is a very dangerous situation, and can effectively stop a significant amount of offense. Only a skilled conc-er with good air-control can make it past a really good sniper on that map. A little active disruption on the front doorstep seems perfectly reasonable to me. It is not the only choice of exits for that spawn.

Also, if a server has a well established policy for maintaining a certain style of play, that's fine. For the most part I feel it's a wasted effort on a pub server, but it works sometimes. If you have a policy for 'league style' or 'clan style' or 'no midmapping' then okay, I suppose. But when you have a server, and the admin members are speedcapping the hell out of things, and they complain that you are disrupting play cause you happen to kill them sometimes, then it's just bullshit. There have been these hollow overatures that the community shuld be friendly to new players. This kind of attitude is really contrary to that attempt. There are a lot of aspects of FF that are really dependant on experiance with the game mechanics. Conc jumping, bhop, effective use of sg's or the spy. Then someone comes along and says "You're using your weapon the wrong way. Stop it or you'll be banned." This smells like elitism to me. Sometimes, playing like that is either A-the players only recourse or B-fun. I'm not saying that all play styles are fine just because they're fun, but discriminating against players just because they don't know some unwritten, ephemeral TFC etiquette, or because they haven't developed all the advanced skills in the game seems very stupid.

Well, retrospectively, I see this was a bit of a rant.

In short:

Spamming spawns : Not real nice, but should be fine.
Designing unspammable spawns on your maps if you don't like that : Possible!
Picking and choosing game features that you don't like and discriminating against them : Bad Policy! (IMO)
Consistent server policies to promote a game-play style : OK.

[Phisionary]

Originally Posted by battery

Yeah, random spy check is a type of spamming too. It goes against the intended spirit of the game. Spies are supposed to be able to blend in with the opponents. He should be able to keep his cover unless he does something suspicious, like walking up to sentry, entering flag room, holding the wrong weapon, running in the wrong direction, or idling around. In other words, a spy should not be uncovered as long as he is being a good actor. Random spy check ruins that. If someone policy is to shoot every teammate he sees, with or without knowing a spy is around, then the spy will have to abandon stealth. He may instead choose to use the gas grenade and frag grenade more aggressively. Spy is comparable to medic when it comes to close quarter combat. But of course, some of you may argue this should not be allowed, since spy is not SUPPOSED to start a fight in your face...annoying.

Considering your view on spamming with regards to rules of gameplay, I'm surprised by this position.

I think the solution for this argument is enabling Friendly Fire. Difficult to implement on a public server but I'm okay with that. Otherwise, having undetectable spies seems very unfair. Spies are very threatening as it is, and it is an aspect of skill to play them without being detected.

[battery]

Originally Posted by Phisionary

Considering your view on spamming with regards to rules of gameplay, I'm surprised by this position.

I think the solution for this argument is enabling Friendly Fire. Difficult to implement on a public server but I'm okay with that. Otherwise, having undetectable spies seems very unfair. Spies are very threatening as it is, and it is an aspect of skill to play them without being detected.

I am being sarcastic here. I applied their questionable logic to the spy-check issue, and arrived at a somewhat absurd conclusion.
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Loratab rehab forums

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by battery

Yeah, random spy check is a type of spamming too. It goes against the intended spirit of the game. Spies are supposed to be able to blend in with the opponents. He should be able to keep his cover unless he does something suspicious, like walking up to sentry, entering flag room, holding the wrong weapon, running in the wrong direction, or idling around. In other words, a spy should not be uncovered as long as he is being a good actor. Random spy check ruins that. If someone policy is to shoot every teammate he sees, with or without knowing a spy is around, then the spy will have to abandon stealth. He may instead choose to use the gas grenade and frag grenade more aggressively. Spy is comparable to medic when it comes to close quarter combat. But of course, some of you may argue this should not be allowed, since spy is not SUPPOSED to start a fight in your face...annoying.

I don't agree so much. While people can get carried away when spy checking, it's best if you are the one being spy checked to let your presence be known by flashing your mic, or if alltalk is on, shoot one of your weapons. There is really no way to avoid being spy checked unless either of those is used. And with the new spy ability to be able to switch weapons or hold specific weapons, it makes it more difficult. That means that any of my teammates who I spy check who used to be able to switch to and from a weapon to show me they are my teammate, they have to hold their mic down or shoot.

Medic by far supercedes spy in close range combat. Despite the ability to cloak/disguise/knife/gas nades, medic still boasts his super shotty, speed, and nades(frag/concs) which are better in terms of throwing the enemy off.

Also, why is a spy not supposed to start a fight in your face? Because it's unexpected? Well now, that's what I'd like to call a strategy.

[battery]

Originally Posted by Desyphur

It's not a war game. It's not a war simulator. Red Orchesta is a war game. Even they don't support spawn spamming.

No, they don't support spawn spamming in Red Orchestra. They just put a tank outside of spawn.
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Yamaha Yzr500 History

[Desyphur]

You know wat battery? I've never seen anyone in FF spam spawns as a team. If I did, I would be disgusted. It's not fair play, it's not fun for the other team. If you're making the game lesss fun for the other people, it unsportsman like.

[Phisionary]

Originally Posted by battery

I am being sarcastic here. I applied their questionable logic to the spy-check issue, and arrived at a somewhat absurd conclusion.

LOL! despite your absurdity, I've seen that opinion before, for much the same reasons. you're shouldn't be so logical in expressing your sarcasm.

[battery]

In 2fort as medic, I always put myself right outside of the spawn door on the sniper deck. Two out of Three times the snipers coming out of there will be infected and unable to snipe. I don't even bother to shoot them. I just infect and escape. Killing them instantly only allows them to respawn faster. Repeat and Rinse, repeat and rinse. They can't really play.

Yes, I do this for FUN. I also do that to help out my teammates. And yes I know it is annoying to the snipers.

I really don't care to give the sniper a fair chance to get out of their spawn, and to prepare to fight. The moment they become ready, they put a bullet in your head! Best way to suppress them is never give them a fair fight.

Just go snipe somewhere else. The sniper deck belongs to me!
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BONDAGE LATEX

[KubeDawg]

That's called spawn infecting, and in most servers, it's a bannable offense. Why do you think the devs decided to remove infection spreading? What's your steamid so I can go ahead and ban you from my server because it sounds you could care less about actual gameplay, and instead focusing on being a jerk in game to people.

[battery]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

That's called spawn infecting, and in most servers, it's a bannable offense. Why do you think the devs decided to remove infection spreading? What's your steamid so I can go ahead and ban you from my server because it sounds you could care less about actual gameplay, and instead focusing on being a jerk in game to people.

The infection does not take place in spawn, it happens right outside of spawn, which happens to be sniper deck. Sniper deck is ALWAYS a valid target, since snipers attack from there. Any reasonable person will not request a sanctuary where you can attack the mid-map without being put in danger.

Other forms of attacking the sniper deck include mirving it from below. The mirv should land nicely outside of that spawn door.
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VAPORIZER WHOLESALER

[Phisionary]

Yes, the devs removed infection spreading. So now it's just a weapon like any other. As an infected player, you have four options: chase down the culprit and kill him, suicide and spawn again, find a medic and get yourself healed, or play on until you die. Oh well, you died. Spawn again and shoot him from all the way across the map next time.
I see no reason this behaviour should be a bannable offense. This is what I meant when I mentioned how some server ops pick-and-choose what they want to enforce. Some would have no problem with there being 4 snipers on a team, killing any player who wants to come out of their own base, but if a player comes up on the sniper deck and tosses a grenade into spawn, they get all bent out of shape. Sometimes the only defense is a dirty offense, I think.

The only exception I see is if a player purposely camps outside of a spawn for long periods, with no apparent other goal. If you spend 2 or 3 minutes sitting outside a spawn, infecting and running away, well, that's not too nice. If you infect a sniper at the spawn door, and then try to steal the flag or something, there should be no complaint I don't think