An Anti Mirv Thread

[dys]

Given the speed of the scout, the durability of the medic and the extremely easy and not-very-skilled way people can grab flags, combined with all the other rather obvious weaknesses in defensive classes right now, a well placed mirv on the flag as the rest of the defense is reloading (soldier), doing nothing (hw) or jogging back and forth to make an impact (engi) is about the only other lifeline there is to buy the defense a decent chance to recover.

Yes, that was one sentence.

Let us not overlook the ability to dance through bomblets and give credit where it's due to those that pull it off in a dm situation. Or for those that use a bomblet to their advantage and jump off of the explosion.

[Dr.Satan]

I'm with the opposition to this thread. MIRV's add comical reliefs and joy to the game and I think they suit the demo just fine...yes sometimes they can be annoying as fuck when some idiot just spams mirvs at the flag the entire round, but honestly...blame the mapper for that.

Shadow does a great job of balancing the nades in both cong and session. IF there is too much spam going on it's b/c of a design flaw in the map where a defensive resup is far to close to a very strategic defensive position and people has easy access to nades, and / or the nade bags respawn to soon.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

I'm with the opposition to this thread. MIRV's add comical reliefs and joy to the game and I think they suit the demo just fine...yes sometimes they can be annoying as fuck when some idiot just spams mirvs at the flag the entire round, but honestly...blame the mapper for that.

I totally agree with you.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

Shadow does a great job of balancing the nades in both cong and session. IF there is too much spam going on it's b/c of a design flaw in the map where a defensive resup is far to close to a very strategic defensive position and people has easy access to nades, and / or the nade bags respawn to soon.

You see, this is where I'm going to have to disagree completely... Shadow has done a fine job making maps, BUT, there are obvious flaws in BOTH session AND congestus... Session, gives defense maybe 90 cells to work with for all packs near the flag room, making things very difficult to build sentry guns, and keep them up, and the enemy can use these packs as well. From what I've heard, those 2 backpacks closest to the flag give offense nades, but no nades for defensive classes... This is retarded. First of all, it's a big mistake having to take the flag back there, the map only needs the 1 cap point outside, because it takes longer time to get back there, than it does just to run the flag to the upper level and outside... Secondly, the defense has nowhere to restock to be able to efficiently guard the flag... It's a complete capfest because of this, and having 0 nades on any packs in that map for defensive players halts their ability to keep the flag in their base...

Onto Congestus. This is a relatively fun map, but again, we are to the same predicament as before. Nades are only available for offensive classes, and those offensive classes DO NOT NEED THESE PACKS. Scouts have 3 concs, medics have 2 at least, and that is more than enough to get the flag back to your base very quickly. Once I cap the flag, there is no reason for me to go back into my respawn and grab more concs. This is a major flaw within this map. I can understand not having secondary nade respawns, especially in the lower spawn, but in the upper spawns, the packs should give at least 2 primary nades to defensive players.

[dys]

I really like the way session looks and think it's got great potential, but yeah those things mentioned above could use some work. Additionaly, it's like a mile hike to get from the respawn to position on defense, AND you have to take fall damage coming out of the respawn??

[Ihmhi]

I wouldn't care if they are replaced so long as the replacement is still a kill on an SG if you get it within a foot or two.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Session...

I don't think there is anywhere in that base that gives O nades except the O spawn on your side of the map...but I could be wrong. The cells thing I think it based off of the low cell count on spawn but do agree that an engy isn't very effective on that map. BUT I also think that if it weren't designed that way, you would probably just see a shit ton of Sg's everywhere and it would ruin that map. Not sure why Shadow chose to make it that way, but I'm sure it was on of the two. WRT the cap...don't use it...IMO it's a great idea b/c the O can toss the flag to the D and let THEM cap it...giving them the instant resup (ie: nades, health, and armor) but either way it's not going to kill the map to have 2 cap pts. IMO and in fact adds depth. I agree that D does have a lot of trouble holding this base, but the resup downstairs is not really that far away. And to be perfectly honest...it's nice once in a while to see a strong O map...plus adding more nades would just make it a spam fest...in such a small base giving the D too much just makes things very spammy and that isn't fun at all IMHO.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Onto Congestus...

This to I disagree with...if you ever played cong in TFC you would know that 80% of the time (pubs or not) this map generally ended up like so:

EITHER - You had 1 or 2 decent O guy(s) playing and the end score was something like 20 to 1900 (maybe not that high but still). The round generally ended up being a complete shut out and in pubs usually meant the team getting owned just turtled and still failed.

OR (more likely of the 2) - you got 1 or 2 idiot D guys who would run into spawn, grab bag, toss nades, run into spawn...repeat for 30 min. This made this map fucking lame everytime. And more often then not this is what you got...IF you managed to get past the 2 Sg's, fatty, and sollies in the FR and toss the flag...then you generally ended up getting stuck going lower...that meant spam, no questions about it it would be mirv on top of mirv on top of mirv or spy pills (both equally annoying in that situation).

What Shadow did was remove this and quite effectively IMO. Again a small map with very short runs from resup to position...as D if you die...your in position generally before the O can even conc back (saying a lot in cong) so not having nades just means you don't get to toss one every 5 seconds UNLESS you die...and TBH cry me a river if you can't handle that. The bags / resup don't strip your nades, they just force you to use the stock amount. Personally I like that and am happy that it was done that way. I had the best time ever playing cong when we played it in UGC the other week...and I used to play cong almost daily for about a year (no shit). And WRT not needing them as O...scout yes, med bs...that map is all about concing...if you can't conc (due to either lack of skill or concs) you pretty much die...so giving the med concs was the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by dys

Additionaly, it's like a mile hike to get from the respawn to position on defense, AND you have to take fall damage coming out of the respawn??

it's not that far...and there is a tele between the two resups...the one empties right at the ramp which is pretty much exactly where you should be. and the bottom resup is just a few hops over and your in the FR...with the lifts you don't even have to take damage to get up to the flag and it's faster then a ramp.

Idk about the fall damage part but I don't remember ever taking damage in the resup.

[squeek.]

It's quite obvious you opposed-to-changing-the-mirv guys haven't played with Gator very much.

Get the flag to SD2 front door against the fellas and enjoy your 10 fps.

I think FF needs to warm to changing things around a bit. We've gotta start somewhere, right?

[Dr.Satan]

It's not so much that I don't agree that in the wrong hands the MIRV can and is bullshit...but I don't think that's a game play issue...I think it's a mapping issue. Regardless of what nade we give people it's going to be the same spam unless the mappers make a note to control the flow of nades to the players.

My point, I guess, is that changing the mirv won't solve the problem at hand...

and I have played gator and totally agree...

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

It's not so much that I don't agree that in the wrong hands the MIRV can and is bullshit...but I don't think that's a game play issue...I think it's a mapping issue. Regardless of what nade we give people it's going to be the same spam unless the mappers make a note to control the flow of nades to the players.

The only way to control spam on a map like pitfall is to remove all mirvs completely from demos on spawn (which I was considering after watching that horrendous pickup on it). Is that really the way it should go? Secondary grenades should not have to be stripped from players in any normal ctf map in my opinion. In that way, it is a gameplay flaw and changing it will solve the problem at hand.

So, back to the blackhole gren. It wouldn't pull teammates or yourself, and maybe it could even be primed at the same time as a frag for some black hole + frag + pipe O demo rape.

Radius would be ~conc radius or maybe a bit bigger.

[puppychow]

stop toying with ideas suited for benefiting clan play.

pubs first. clanplay second. mirvs are quite enjoyable as they are tyvm.

that is all.

then again, guess we dont have too many pubs either. but in all seriousness, i see the motives of this discussion as the say as the stupid no O vs O crap, or otherwsie known as "don't shoot me idiot I'm going for the flag".

i infected a scout last night in shutdown_2 while coming into the base and next thing I see is "you fucking idiot", like somehow i had the nerve, or the audacity to actually impede his progress, and for me to resort to such a nethandralic tactic was so beneath him.

there's a constant general tone of scounts and medics, and highly skilled ones at that, who generally seek to remove all random chance of death, and they only suitable way of death for them is at the hands of someone who pulls of a skilled manuever.

this line of thinking just bugs me i guess, and i'm seeing it here.

spam for all its annoyances, is comical as stated but more importantly, is necessary imo as a recruitment tool for new players. it's how newbies can get frags and feel apart of things while they improve their skill.

don't we already have the solution anyways? want to get fruity with all that O or No O vs O nonesense and have a "cleaner" and more skilled experience? stick to clan games, no?

[Dr.Satan]

Idk I don't think it's a matter of controlling the spam in such a way that you can or should ever eliminate it. Spam is and will always be a part of this game. It's times when tossing a mirv can and does happen often that it becomes a problem. One or two is not an issue...b/c they are a spammy weapon, they should be and that isn't bad. 7, 8, 12 etc is when it's simply ridiculous. And at that level it can be controlled by either disallowing nades (probably the worst of solutions but it is a solution) OR just extend the resup timer on the bags. If it becomes a sacrifice most times to "wait" for nades, then the D is less likely to waste their nades and more likely to use them strategically.

Monkey is an example...nades are pretty quick spawning. So you can pretty much grab the nade bag, run out, spam mirvs, run back grab bag...so on. Add a 30sec timer (or longer) to that bag and it's now more about getting to the flag and piping it then it is just grabbing the nades. Are people going to wait for them? Sure. Will their still be spam? Of course. BUT it won't be as much of a problem AND not everyone will have nades all the time. And if they do wait for them...they are going to loose the cap.

Pitfall to...it's a messy map, always has been. But it's not spammy as I see spam. Some mirvs are acceptable IMO, a shit ton are not.

WRT the blackhole...I like the idea, I still don't think it's the solution to this problem, but that's not to say changing shit up is a bad idea. I can see some extremely cool fucking skills built off of a weapon like that. Few things I think:

1) It should draw weapons into it. Eg: rockets, pipes, nades. I think the pull on weapons should be very slight. Meaning IF a demo caught a medic in it and a solly happened to shoot near the center…it wouldn’t necessarily pull it in, but within a certain radios it should pull that in and really fuck up said med.
2) The pull on people / players should be very slight on the outer angles…maybe enough to mess up a perfect conc, but not so much that it can’t be corrected. Then the closed you get the more it will pull and the worse off you are. AND at a certain point it should grab you.
3) Definitely should distort the area around it like a conc does, but inward and maybe get some coloring in there or just a dead black hue to it.
4) I would say it shouldn’t last longer then a nail gren for sure.
5) How many should a demo get? Too many and we’re at the same issue.
6) Should it do damage alone? I think if it’s a grenade…it should. Or maybe have it strip armor and ammo as opposed to doing damage? That would be pretty cool IMO b/c then even if you don’t kill the player with a projectile…your pipes are going to do a ton more damage. Would be really cool if it like stripped the armor / ammo and left something behind that another player could grab…just like tossing a bag, but this wouldn’t be voluntary. Helps out demo and engy b/c anyone who has played demo knows that you usually run out of ammo. I would say it shouldn’t take all of the players ammo b/c that would be overpowered, but some significant amount would be cool.
7) More I’m sure but I need to do some work today

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by puppychow

stop toying with ideas suited for benefiting clan play.

pubs first. clanplay second. mirvs are quite enjoyable as they are tyvm.

that is all.

then again, guess we dont have too many pubs either.

How is this idea benefiting clan play only? It's meant to eliminate an aspect of the game that harms both clan and pub play alike. Spamming a spawn with mirvs on a pub? That isn't a problem?

By the way, you are free to offer up suggestions as well. If you want the voice of public players heard, then speak up. Saying "this doesn't need fixing" is only alright if you can back it up with why, though.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

I don't think there is anywhere in that base that gives O nades except the O spawn on your side of the map...but I could be wrong. The cells thing I think it based off of the low cell count on spawn but do agree that an engy isn't very effective on that map. BUT I also think that if it weren't designed that way, you would probably just see a shit ton of Sg's everywhere and it would ruin that map. Not sure why Shadow chose to make it that way, but I'm sure it was on of the two. WRT the cap...don't use it...IMO it's a great idea b/c the O can toss the flag to the D and let THEM cap it...giving them the instant resup (ie: nades, health, and armor) but either way it's not going to kill the map to have 2 cap pts. IMO and in fact adds depth. I agree that D does have a lot of trouble holding this base, but the resup downstairs is not really that far away. And to be perfectly honest...it's nice once in a while to see a strong O map...plus adding more nades would just make it a spam fest...in such a small base giving the D too much just makes things very spammy and that isn't fun at all IMHO.

Afaik, I think the packs by the flag gives your team 2ndary nades. I think this map was made with congestus in mind so the same mistake couldn't be made again, not necessarily to give engis an advantage. It's also that the spawns aren't nearly as close as I'd like them to be. It's difficult for most defensive classes really. As far as the back flag cap area goes, first of all, it takes as much time as it does to get it there if you toss to your teammate, and you are out of concs on offense if you do throw it. IMO, the best thing to do would be to put primary nade restocks by the flag, and that's it. That way the defense can focus on just that, defense. They can get their bags, and the offense can get theirs restocked once they cap the flag... It's the opposite of a small base.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

This to I disagree with...if you ever played cong in TFC you would know that 80% of the time (pubs or not) this map generally ended up like so:

EITHER - You had 1 or 2 decent O guy(s) playing and the end score was something like 20 to 1900 (maybe not that high but still). The round generally ended up being a complete shut out and in pubs usually meant the team getting owned just turtled and still failed.

OR (more likely of the 2) - you got 1 or 2 idiot D guys who would run into spawn, grab bag, toss nades, run into spawn...repeat for 30 min. This made this map fucking lame everytime. And more often then not this is what you got...IF you managed to get past the 2 Sg's, fatty, and sollies in the FR and toss the flag...then you generally ended up getting stuck going lower...that meant spam, no questions about it it would be mirv on top of mirv on top of mirv or spy pills (both equally annoying in that situation).

That is why you only put the primary nade packs in the upper spawns... The bottom spawns need 0 nade packs, for anyone...

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

What Shadow did was remove this and quite effectively IMO. Again a small map with very short runs from resup to position...as D if you die...your in position generally before the O can even conc back (saying a lot in cong) so not having nades just means you don't get to toss one every 5 seconds UNLESS you die...and TBH cry me a river if you can't handle that. The bags / resup don't strip your nades, they just force you to use the stock amount. Personally I like that and am happy that it was done that way. I had the best time ever playing cong when we played it in UGC the other week...and I used to play cong almost daily for about a year (no shit). And WRT not needing them as O...scout yes, med bs...that map is all about concing...if you can't conc (due to either lack of skill or concs) you pretty much die...so giving the med concs was the right thing to do.

Don't get me wrong, I love capping, it's just when the defense cannot defend the flag at all, there's something wrong with the map. Congestus needs to be made more D friendly, even if it's simply adding a couple nade packs to both top spawns. I can't tell you how easy it is for me to conc on that map. Hell, the only time when defense stands a chance is when the offense accidentally drops the flag down that hole in the FR...

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

Idk about the fall damage part but I don't remember ever taking damage in the resup.

Every time you exit the lower respawn on the left side(facing twds the outside of the base from inside), you take fall damage, unless you strafe on the side of that ledge first.

[puppychow]

Originally Posted by squeek.

How is this idea benefiting clan play only? It's meant to eliminate an aspect of the game that harms both clan and pub play alike. Spamming a spawn with mirvs on a pub? That isn't a problem?

By the way, you are free to offer up suggestions as well. If you want the voice of public players heard, then speak up. Saying "this doesn't need fixing" is only alright if you can back it up with why, though.

ok

it doesn't need fixing because it's fine as it is, and a certain level of mirv spam is beneficial to the game through the comedic value and being able to take out positions entrenched by turtlers. i just don't see it as broken.

this would be a radical change and theres not enough of a problem for such a step.

edit - and i don't really find an issue with spawn being spammed on a pub - it's a pub. some of the best fun to be had with tfc/ff are anything goes games. but thats a polarizing opinion, i know. just such seriousness out there.....

[dys]

The black hole nade idea is interesting, I could see it being very fun. But replacing the mirv with it doesn't necessarily offer a decent alternative to the purpose in the mirv to begin with.

Tactical spam in particular is a tough topic. It's good, it's useful when used decently. It's bad when it's overly used. But what about what I listed earlier in the purpose of the mirv? That's gone completely untouched. The mirv does have a purpose and by taking it away then you've taken some advantages away from the defense and replaced it with a much less-impacting alternative option being discussed.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

Idk I don't think it's a matter of controlling the spam in such a way that you can or should ever eliminate it.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the spam issue. I see your point, but I think Gator-style 2 mirv every spawn thrown into monkey pit/pitfall pit/ofire flag/etc/etc is not really a sort of spam that is necessary.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

1) It should draw weapons into it. Eg: rockets, pipes, nades.

Great idea.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

2) The pull on people / players should be very slight on the outer angles…

That's what I was thinking as well. A huge slight-pull radius, with a smaller ~conc-size insta-pull radius. Or, it could even be the craziest nade ever and push people outside a certain radius and pull people inside a certain radius.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

3) Definitely should distort the area around it like a conc does, but inward and maybe get some coloring in there or just a dead black hue to it.

Don't know about this... distorting the view could lessen the effect of the nade. With a conc, sometimes you can't see the people behind it/in it at all and that would be a problem with a black hole nade.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

4) I would say it shouldn’t last longer then a nail gren for sure.

I was thinking instant pull, no hold time. More like a reverse conc. But, a small hold time might work. Maybe once it pulls a target to its center, they get dropped and are no longer effected by the pull. That way, there won't be like 2-3 guys stuck in the air while the demo lays his pipes and dets them.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

5) How many should a demo get? Too many and we’re at the same issue.

Same as mirvs.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

6) Should it do damage alone?

I say no. The only major problem I see with replacing the mirv is that it severely weakens the demos ability to take out SGs. Some ability for the black hole to damage SGs would probably be good.

EDIT: I got it! It could have a huge effect on your own projectiles and have a hold time. Toss it next to an sg, throw some blues and they'll det in the center of the black hole.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by squeek.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the spam issue.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by squeek.

I say no. The only major problem I see with replacing the mirv is that it severely weakens the demos ability to take out SGs. Some ability for the black hole to damage SGs would probably be good.

EDIT: I got it! It could have a huge effect on your own projectiles and have a hold time. Toss it next to an sg, throw some blues and they'll det in the center of the black hole.

The problem with this is that you now have to be in the open long enough to toss the nade and then chuck blues into it...in an ideal situation that would take anywhere from 7 - 10 sec. and we all know that's plenty time for an Sg to take you out.

I was thinking something like either disabling the Sg or drawing it's fire into the center...like a black hole would do. This way a timed run with a demo / scout / med would require some skill (as opposed to throw + mirv) but when pulled off correctly, a med / scout could get in there and grab the flag and be out b4 the nade ended. OR the demo could toss that and then run in and rape the Sg with pipes / frags.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

The problem with this is that you now have to be in the open long enough to toss the nade and then chuck blues into it...in an ideal situation that would take anywhere from 7 - 10 sec. and we all know that's plenty time for an Sg to take you out.

I was thinking something like either disabling the Sg or drawing it's fire into the center...like a black hole would do. This way a timed run with a demo / scout / med would require some skill (as opposed to throw + mirv) but when pulled off correctly, a med / scout could get in there and grab the flag and be out b4 the nade ended. OR the demo could toss that and then run in and rape the Sg with pipes / frags.

Good point and good idea.

Also, dys, the mirv does serve a purpose currently. Hopefully the skimming momentum will be reduced and we can get some new ideas, such as this one, rolling with it.

[puppychow]

re-read Dys post: he knows there is a purpose, he's saying that if you take the mirvs away, even with something in it's place, the game might be made even more O friendly than it already is.

i'm not trying to be combative but i do have strong feelings about the mirvs. i think there is some mental masturbation going on here with new ideas, and being enamoured with the possibility of something new, for something that doesn't need to be changed.

make the game any more O friendly and it's offbalance. i'd suggest making these prospective changes widely known to get others comments.

again, and we may disagree on this but the changes here being disucssed seem to be in the interest of clanning first, and that's unfortunate. mirvs shouldn't go anywhere.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by puppychow

re-read Dys post: he knows there is a purpose, he's saying that if you take the mirvs away, even with something in it's place, the game might be made even more O friendly than it already is.

Re-read this thread and then re-read my post.

I think the ridiculously fast skimming momentum is make the game nearly unbalancable/unchangable, and that, once it gets fixed, other things can start to happen.