Some critique

[Elmo]

sorry - I just reread what I responded to before and realised I was confused by what you were saying. I'm not in disagreement with you, I was replying to what i thought you said, so just ignore it.

[imperius]

hello

In my opinion, for the ppl that say the game is not fast enough now, well ... 2 bad for you ... the game has to balance attack and defence, and lets face it, the defence part, when u all were flying around fast was non existent, and that was annoying. That’s why I stop playing in 2.0. Only came back couse Ze told me 2.4 was totally different and I do think its better now.

This all comes to the discussion between Attackers who like to steal the flag and defenders (like myself) who want to protect the flag. As much you ppl like to cap it gess what, we like to kill you to protect it. It is more balanced now.

Some classes should be tweaked (pyro especially) but overall they all are good enough.

For the sniper, I think he is ok, I only would change the way he fires while zoomed, in that regard I think the sniper from TF2 is better, having to keep the fire button hold to charge is annoying since old age. And btw, sniper should own every class if the sniper rifle is charged, no discussion there.

Another annoying thing, is some classes should have a limited number on each team, is totally annoying to be against an 11 player team where 5 of them are demoman's and all of them keep spamming your base. I can’t play, the enemy team mates (scouts medics) also fail to “fly” because of the spam changes their direction. Overall the game and the map becomes annoying.

In the other day I brought a new player to FF from TF2, he liked the game, but his first comment was “to much spam”. That as nothing to do with him being new, simply discourages new players to try more. Even I felt there is to much spam in the game and once I told it in game and you know what a so called “elite” “old timers” responded …. “go to TF2”. Well perhaps I will.

Ppl talk about learning curve, its true that most players our days don’t want to have that big learning curve and that is ashamed. In tf2 u can simply choose any class and learn from there. In FF (and tfc was like that) it’s totally different. My learning curve was simply going to a server as a HWG and star shooting until one day a dude from a clan decided to recruit me and doing so the clan members in their private server started to teach me the other classes. My point is, in public servers you can’t learn, it’s a impossibility, players like to kill not always being killed. A new player exploring conc grenades, needs to stop, throw the grenade count and see what happens, in a public server with all “elite” “old timers” he is instantly shoot. So those movies someone was talking about they would be a great help for them.
Also, we the ones who cross both FF and TF2 could publicise FF in TF2 servers with automatic binds like when we kill someone is says "FF skills owned you! www.fortress-forever.com" or start playing together as a clan using the FF tag or something. (just an idea). Perhaps for every 10 TF2 players that try FF one or two will stick around.

Grenades, I like grenades (emp’s etc), but we have to face it, being killed throw the wall is annoying. Especially if u still inside your respown area. Something should change in the mechanics of the nades. I also would restrict grenades, especially in some maps, like gravepit etc. (restrict or remove them from certain maps or only allowed them after a certain amount of time after gates are open.).

My brain is dry now …. Lol

Peace, c u on the servers running from my Rockets
Imp.L

[xks]

Originally Posted by imperius

In the other day I brought a new player to FF from TF2, he liked the game, but his first comment was “to much spam”. That as nothing to do with him being new, simply discourages new players to try more. Even I felt there is to much spam in the game and once I told it in game and you know what a so called “elite” “old timers” responded …. “go to TF2”. Well perhaps I will.

There certainly is too much spam, but that's what you get on AvD maps. These maps reward spamming, especially the ones with any kind of choke point.

Since most servers play a lot of AvD these days, the game has become more about spam and less about skill.

I'm well aware I'll have people disagreeing with me but I'm just saying what I see.

Of course there is still spam on CTF, but it has much less of a benefit than it does on an AvD map. One big reason for this is that CTF requires around half the players to remain alive in order to hold their advantageous position and to hold off a relentless and fast paced assault.

On an AvD map the need to stay alive is far less, so you end up having two teams endlessly charging into one another at a choke point, emptying themselves of their grenades in the process. This behaviour is rewarded as it slows down the progress of the attacking team, but the defenders aren't the only ones that spam on those maps.

This is part of the reason I've ended up playing QL CTF more and FF less.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by xks

This is part of the reason I've ended up playing QL CTF more and FF less.

Oddly, it feels like I've heard this before.

[xks]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Oddly, it feels like I've heard this before.

I think I knew your response before clicking on this thread!

[GeoKill----->]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Oddly, it feels like I've heard this before.

+1 No joke.. :/

[imperius]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Oddly, it feels like I've heard this before.

Originally Posted by GeoKill----->

+1 No joke.. :/

Deja Vu!!??

[chilledsanity]

xks: It sounds like you're at the opposite end of the spectrum as I am. If it wasn't for the level of spam present I doubt I would have ever gotten into TFC. You get a higher concentration of action then than almost any other game I've seen. Also unlike CTF, pubbing actually works for the AvD format because everyone contributes something, even if all they're doing is dm'ing.

Except for extreme cases (like some of the dustbowl gates opening), I would argue against that saying it takes less skill in these situations, but it does take a different kind. In CTF the skill is focused particularly around timing, being able to swoop in and grab the flag, outmaneuver the enemy, react to offense in time, etc. In AvD the skill focus is much more strategy oriented and being able to process all the stimuli at once. In a good AvD game you have to plan how to get around or subvert the weak areas as offense and discover and reinforce them as defense.

The amount of activity going on can be overwhelming for some, but add an additional challenge for others. So one person may play for 10 seconds and see half a dozen grenades going off, realize defense is almost spent on them and needs to restock, an sg is distracted firing at another player, a solider has to reload, a demoman is trigger happy so you can probably fake him out, you have enough health to outlast hwguy fire for a few seconds and your pyro is distracting the opposing team creating more diversion allowing the player to find the opening amidst all that on the fly. Another play will see nothing but chaos and claim there's almost no skill involved, just spam. So it's a mixed bag depending on your playstyle.

[Peon]

Originally Posted by Junkhead

Pyros being able to own you without you standing much of a chance, if they're good.

Originally Posted by Junkhead

Flame grenades. These little guys aren't neat and orderly like a soldier's nailgrenades, these guys just go everywhere, and there's not much you can do if someone nades the outside of a spawn. Being on fire is just annoying because, unless there's a medic around who cares enough, or water deep enough, you're going to be on fire for a little while. It's not like you being on fire actually benefits the pyro; the pyro gets no points when you die unless the pyro is the one who kills you.

Here's another contradiction.....first he's too powerful, then his flame nades suck. And trust me....it's VERY bad to be burning from napalm, especially if there's 2 Pyros running around.

I'm not trying to bag on you btw....it's just that your critiques are all generally things I like about the game....i.e. all the crazy poop going on. I love a lot of it.....I only don't like the things that could be more functional or lacking.

It's very common for some people to have a long list of complaints like this, but when you stand back and look, you're finding issues with every classes powers being too high. The simple truth is that this is a game of super-powered fighters, and every class is equally annoying in the right hands.

Just have patience and screw your enemy faster than he/she can screw you.....the game flow can shift radically so keep on hammering 'till the buzzer sounds. It's a sport baby!

[chaunbot]

why did tfc maps get scaled down so much? if u play qwtf i'd say tfc/ff is less than half the size, maybe open stuff up a bit maps are too confined, i dunno spam is annoying but it's always been apart of the game. maybe make a 2fort thats scaled to quake size medic is still working on shoop not many choke points .... hey squeek ill pay 50 $ for 32 maxclients

[Junkhead]

Originally Posted by Peon

Here's another contradiction.....first he's too powerful, then his flame nades suck. And trust me....it's VERY bad to be burning from napalm, especially if there's 2 Pyros running around.

Listen, guy. It's not a contradiction. I said the pyro was too powerful, and I said the grenades were too powerful.

Anyway, I've had my say. Continue arguing.

[Desyphur]

Originally Posted by chaunbot

why did tfc maps get scaled down so much? if u play qwtf i'd say tfc/ff is less than half the size, maybe open stuff up a bit maps are too confined, i dunno spam is annoying but it's always been apart of the game. maybe make a 2fort thats scaled to quake size medic is still working on shoop not many choke points .... hey squeek ill pay 50 $ for 32 maxclients

2fort in quake was like...really really small. Couldn't bunny hop in most of the areas.

[provost]

There are several types of games.

All of them having different ratio of;

- Entertainment
- Challenge

ie: PACMAN'S entertainment level is abysmal, but it's challenge level is insane.
you work damn hard to reach Stage 80, if you die, back to Stage 1.

GTA has a decent enough entertainment level, it's challenge level is questionnable.


This is how it works: right off the bat the entertaining type of game will be good fun but you will eventually get bored of it, it's entertainment dropping, with no challenge, the game is left with nothing.

The challenging game is almost built to discourage you from playing it as most people find it no fun to constantly lose at something. However, if you stay long enough and get good at it, the challenge part diminishes, and the entertainment/fun part of it, unveils.

Wich is why alot of people won't let go off quake 3, TFC, AvP
While others get bored pretty fast of fun-based game (won't name any)


TFC/FF is just that. It won't take you by the hand, leading you to the chocolate realm whle singing along.

[wakka]

I was kinda counting on FF taking me to the chocolate realm, hundreds of hours are now wasted...

[waywardspooky]

Not trying discredit the annoyances that the OP has posted, I'd just like to point out that most what he mentioned are also annoyances in TFC, which FF seems to be based off of.

Since we're on the topic of annoyances we've experienced with FF, I can honestly say I've experienced very few, then again this was back when the game has just came out, the very same week infact. I played the hell out of FF and even put up a server for my clan, partly because FF rocked so hard and partly because it felt like every FF server that went up was somehow sticking it to TF2 ( which I'm not too fond of ). During that time the only super big annoyance I had was... cloaked spies.

The bane of my existence for FF was spies. I hated that they could cloak. There was nothing that wore my nerves more than an entire defense that was otherwise holding back the enemy, falling apart because of a single cloaked spy. There was no longer any safety in just noticing someone walking around with the wrong weapon, moving at an odd speed, having the same name as someone standing next to you, or just generally standing somewhere they shouldn't be. That's not to say that a good spy, even without cloaking couldn't ruin your entire day, but even mediocre spies were destroying defenses with what seemed like minimal effort. If you combined a good spy with cloaking then your team could pretty much just hang it up, the rest of the game would just be a steady stream of embarrassing deaths and paranoia.

[chilledsanity]

waywardspooky: Wow I don't think you'll be happy with the latest version then. Now cloaked spies have TOTAL invisibility when standing still and sentries no longer fire on them when cloaked either. I think it's destroyed balance in hunted (assuming the spy is halfway competent) and I don't think defense got any extra abilities to compensate (I don't count a "ping" sound v. ACTUALLY FIRING for the sg).

[waywardspooky]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

waywardspooky: Wow I don't think you'll be happy with the latest version then. Now cloaked spies have TOTAL invisibility when standing still and sentries no longer fire on them when cloaked either. I think it's destroyed balance in hunted (assuming the spy is halfway competent) and I don't think defense got any extra abilities to compensate (I don't count a "ping" sound v. ACTUALLY FIRING for the sg).

I can't believe this is still a balance issue. I figured the whole spy thing would have gotten addressed several versions ago.

[squeek.]

It will be addressed.

[GenghisTron]

I've never in my life had a 'problem' with spies. They're easy to see, 99.99% of them don't know how to play (Elwood and Snaple are pretty awesome spies, Elwood is just amazing), and the only time you would even want a spy on offense is in a pub, where anything goes.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by waywardspooky

I can't believe this is still a balance issue. I figured the whole spy thing would have gotten addressed several versions ago.

It's not a balance issue imo. The SG sounds really give the engineer something to do other than sit behind his gun, spamming his instant heal wrench and allowing the sg to survive insane amounts of burst damage. Spy Hunting!