Spies and disguises

Originally Posted by lollerskates

Well, I don't know what to tell you. I've sabotaged many, many sentry guns, and I'm more than capable of escaping hairy situations, killing enemies in combat and avoiding detection. You're doing something wrong.

They were bad players. Why would you not hit someone near a sentry gun or someone wearing your team color? It costs you nothing, it will save your life and possibly win you the game.

[@BLOODy]

I'm not a hardcore player of any class but pretending to be looking for an imaginary enemy or lobbing frags to a generic front entrance where the offense comes from seems to do wonders in tricking the enemy.
It also helps to wait some time before activating a sentry sabotage.

Originally Posted by @BLOODy

I'm not a hardcore player of any class but pretending to be looking for an imaginary enemy or lobbing frags to a generic front entrance where the offense comes from seems to do wonders in tricking the enemy.
It also helps to wait some time before activating a sentry sabotage.

You will be shot no matter what. It costs them nothing. It will save their life. It might win them the game.

Until it actually starts costing players something to do spychecking, it'll be going on.

A quick, easy and fair fix would be to remove the grunting sound when disguised as a spy and possibly making them immune to infections when disguised as well. The latter isn't as big an issue though.

[v3rtigo]

You can throw a grenade to kill the engy, but if there is someone else in the room (which is almost always the case), you are screwed. On top of that, sabotaging is way too easy to spot and receiving any sort of damage resets the bar. The only time you will be able to successfully sabotage a sentry is when either no one is around to keep an eye on it or when 3 engineers are mindlessly ramming one sentry, something that only happens in pubs.

Though sabotaging is not the spy's main purpose, if you make it impossible to pull off in competitive play, then it will eventually be forgotten and/or discarded. I remember a thread where alternative methods of sabotaging were suggested and I think that would be the answer to the whole 'sabotage-is-too-hard-when...' problem. The one I liked most was where you could walk past and plant a bug on the thing. It would automatically activate in 5-10 seconds so you wouldn't have to stare at it. To counter, the engineer would get a message that something is being done to his SG so he could fix it.

Something like this does not put the spy in immediate danger, but also does not guarantee success. Where the current method is more risky but sure-kill once you've pulled it off, this alternative method would decrease the chance of a quick death at the cost of successrate. The spy will be able to survive longer once he's inside, but the defense is usually immediately aware of his presence, so it should balance itself out I think.

[@BLOODy]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

You will be shot no matter what. It costs them nothing. It will save their life. It might win them the game.

Until it actually starts costing players something to do spychecking, it'll be going on.

A quick, easy and fair fix would be to remove the grunting sound when disguised as a spy and possibly making them immune to infections when disguised as well. The latter isn't as big an issue though.

I've never experienced a team, be it enemy or my team shoot everyone on the same team for spychecks.
They do however shoot obvious spies.For example, if a soldier who has been on attack the entire round and suddenly barges into the flag room making a B line for the flag going ' oh hay guys im deffending' he will be shot.

I often check the names of people going the opposite direction, see if they're the right class by pressing tab ( or from memory) and think ' didn't i just see the same person in our spawn?', pick your disguise wisely because every round will have different classes used by different people. try avoiding using the same names as the people you are attacking, it's too obvious when @BLOODy tries to heal me.

To be honest, i'd say you're doing something horribly wrong although i don't know what

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

You can throw a grenade to kill the engy, but if there is someone else in the room (which is almost always the case), you are screwed. On top of that, sabotaging is way too easy to spot and receiving any sort of damage resets the bar. The only time you will be able to successfully sabotage a sentry is when either no one is around to keep an eye on it or when 3 engineers are mindlessly ramming one sentry, something that only happens in pubs.

Though sabotaging is not the spy's main purpose, if you make it impossible to pull off in competitive play, then it will eventually be forgotten and/or discarded. I remember a thread where alternative methods of sabotaging were suggested and I think that would be the answer to the whole 'sabotage-is-too-hard-when...' problem. The one I liked most was where you could walk past and plant a bug on the thing. It would automatically activate in 5-10 seconds so you wouldn't have to stare at it. To counter, the engineer would get a message that something is being done to his SG so he could fix it.

Something like this does not put the spy in immediate danger, but also does not guarantee success. Where the current method is more risky but sure-kill once you've pulled it off, this alternative method would decrease the chance of a quick death at the cost of successrate. The spy will be able to survive longer once he's inside, but the defense is usually immediately aware of his presence, so it should balance itself out I think.

That could be a fix, especially since you could also knife the engineer if he were trying to repair it as well. Though this still leaves spychecking, which is something impossible to get passed, other than standing in 1 place hoping no one would notice. Instead of having people rely on sound, they should rely on their awareness skill/team communications etc. Removing the grunting sound is the only way I can think of, of being able to avoid spychecking.

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

They were bad players.

No, they just went to get supplies and had no idea I was there.

Why would you not hit someone near a sentry gun or someone wearing your team color? It costs you nothing, it will save your life and possibly win you the game.

If a soldier standing in the flag room of well sees an engineer go to the attic and then sees an engineer leave the attic, he is very likely going to be convinced that it's the very same engineer who just left. If someone approaches the flag room and sees a soldier peering down from the catwalks, he is likely going to be convinced that it's a defender. When I was playing shutdown2 last night people were firing in the air to show me that they are not spies. I jumped up and down as if to say "hey you're cool with me." Oh, the irony.

On friendly fire servers people are even more hesitant to spy check.

Originally Posted by @BLOODy

I've never experienced a team, be it enemy or my team shoot everyone on the same team for spychecks.
They do however shoot obvious spies.For example, if a soldier who has been on attack the entire round and suddenly barges into the flag room making a B line for the flag going ' oh hay guys im deffending' he will be shot.

I often check the names of people going the opposite direction, see if they're the right class by pressing tab ( or from memory) and think ' didn't i just see the same person in our spawn?', pick your disguise wisely because every round will have different classes used by different people. try avoiding using the same names as the people you are attacking, it's too obvious when @BLOODy tries to heal me.

To be honest, i'd say you're doing something horribly wrong although i don't know what

You don't seem to understand this thread.

In order for you to figure out if someone is a spy, all you have to do is hit them once with anything and if they grunt, you've just found a spy. The only thing they can do now is either fight back or try to run. If they try to fight back, they will most likely lose, unless you're at half health/near dead yourself. If they try to run, they will be running into your other teammates and possibly a sentrygun.

I have no problem fooling people. I have no problem getting into a base. I've won many dustbowl matches by disguising myself as an engineer, sabotaging a sentry gun and then taking the flag and capping it while they were distracted/dead. Only problem is, I can only do that with bad players. Good players would've been paying attention and hitting me to see if I grunted or not.

When it costs you nothing to find a spy, there is no reason for you to not use it. Spy checking will always happen. If you don't see it happening, it's because you're with bad/new players. Against a good engineer defending a flag, you cannot get passed him. He will shoot anyone he sees. You cannot cloak since the sg will destroy you.

Originally Posted by lollerskates

No, they just went to get supplies and had no idea I was there.


If a soldier standing in the flag room of well sees an engineer go to the attic and then sees an engineer leave the attic, he is very likely going to be convinced that it's the very same engineer who just left. If someone approaches the flag room and sees a soldier peering down from the catwalks, he is likely going to be convinced that it's a defender. When I was playing shutdown2 last night people were firing in the air to show me that they are not spies. I jumped up and down as if to say "hey you're cool with me." Oh, the irony.

On friendly fire servers people are even more hesitant to spy check.

Why did he not build it near supplies? It takes you less than a second to get supplies for your sg if you build it in a good place. Not to mention, there's usually another person defending the sg.

Why wouldn't that soldier have shot at the engineer to see if he was a spy or not? It would've cost him nothing. That means the soldier was a bad player. Do you understand the point now? If he had shot at the engineer, he would've found out it was a spy and would've destroyed him with another rocket.

I don't see how this is hard to understand.

[v3rtigo]

I figured that a good way to somewhat get past spychecks is to temporarily disable paingrunts on yourself. If you get shot by suprise, you'll be found out, but if you time it right, it might save your hiney.

[oxylos]

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

I figured that a good way to somewhat get past spychecks is to temporarily disable paingrunts on yourself. If you get shot by suprise, you'll be found out, but if you time it right, it might save your hiney.

But the typical situations which let a player do spycheck, would not change. When everyone knows that there is a possibility to disable paingrunts for an amount of time, they would keep shoting eiher till the spy start crying or just die cause of the damage

@omgpewpewlazerzz
Is this solution you prefer too?

Originally Posted by oxylos

But the typical situations which let a player do spycheck, would not change. When everyone knows that there is a possibility to disable paingrunts for an amount of time, they would keep shoting eiher till the spy start crying or just die cause of the damage

@omgpewpewlazerzz
Is this solution you prefer too?

Nope, I prefer to simply remove grunt sounds when disguised all together. Although, if they would rather put this in, I wouldn't mind it as it would help quite a lot still.

[oxylos]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

Nope, I prefer to simply remove grunt sounds when disguised all together. Although, if they would rather put this in, I wouldn't mind it as it would help quite a lot still.

That would maybe create suspicious atmosphere where no one would trust the other.

When a player looks at another player because the typical situations (maybe he was knifed 1 min ago) how could he detect if it is a spy? If the spy is still alive after 4 rockets then maybe this would be the "new" spycheck. a bit radically

Originally Posted by oxylos

That would maybe create suspicious atmosphere where no one would trust the other.

When a player looks at another player because the typical situations (maybe he was knifed 1 min ago) how could he detect if it is a spy? If the spy is still alive after 4 rockets then maybe this would be the "new" spycheck. a bit radically

They would rely on their awareness skill. If you see an engineer running around and no sg in site, you're going to think they're a spy and if they start running as your firing, that's another sign they're a spy.

Play the game without sound and try finding spies. If you're aware that there are some on the other team, it's not going to be hard to spot them.

[oxylos]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

They would rely on their awareness skill. If you see an engineer running around and no sg in site, you're going to think they're a spy and if they start running as your firing, that's another sign they're a spy.

Play the game without sound and try finding spies.

When team members start running away after got shot with the "radically" spycheck then the disabled grunt sounds would not help those spies.

Originally Posted by oxylos

When team members start running away after got shot with the "radically" spycheck then the disabled grunt sounds would not help those spies.

It helps. I've lived many, many times when people from far away shoot me thinking I'm a spy, only to stop when I have very little health. They stopped because they thought I was one of them. If I was up close where they could hear me, they would've kept going.

spychecking is pretty easy, but it doesn't matter even when good spies know that i know they are spies they still fuck me up. So who cares.

[oxylos]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

It helps. I've lived many, many times when people from far away shoot me thinking I'm a spy, only to stop when I have very little health. They stopped because they thought I was one of them. If I was up close where they could hear me, they would've kept going.

That behaviour works that way because of the actual spy implementation, which would change when using no grunt sounds.
Also those people are surly the "bad players" you mentioned above and for those there is no need to disable grunt sounds

[v3rtigo]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

It helps. I've lived many, many times when people from far away shoot me thinking I'm a spy, only to stop when I have very little health. They stopped because they thought I was one of them. If I was up close where they could hear me, they would've kept going.

Same here.

Surely, if you can temporarily disable grunt noises then spychecking will become more radical, but that gets you back to the point of paranoia. Plus they are wasting more time and resources on testing, which increases the spies' usefulness. Also don't forget that if they catch you by suprise, you're still busted.

Originally Posted by oxylos

That behaviour works that way because of the actual spy implementation, which would change when using no grunt sounds.
Also those people are surly the "bad players" you mentioned above and for those there is no need to disable grunt sounds

They aren't bad players. When you hit someone and they don't react, you're going to think they're afk or one of you. It takes very few hits to kill a spy. They figured they hit me enough to kill a spy. Now, without the grunt sound, the same would happen when close range. Simple.

It simply makes spy checks harder. Nothing more, nothing less.