Merged: Disappointed TF2 and TF2 Impressions

[Desyphur]

Originally Posted by Blazestorm

It amazes me the bias and elitism in this forum/thread.

Fortress Forever is not the best game ever created. It's TFC Source...

TF2 is a new game, and is by far the most fun I've had playing FPS's in a LONG time...

Sure, I cut down this post a little, but I had to say something. You talked about grenade spam, yet the class you play in TF2 the most is Demoman...how ironic.

[Dr.Uudge]

Yes, i get it. TF2 is fun. And visually impressive. Thanks for reminding me, because i forgot how visual eye candy tends to add to the gameplay mechanics. I wish tf2 players would remind me how visually impressive tf2 is and how "tactical teamplay" is important to team fortress type games, every other post, in the FF forum because i seem to forget every 10 seconds, and oh gosh, the steam forum is just never working for me, when i wish i could just bath in comments on how visually impressive tf2 is, and just how fun, and how it was well worth the 45 usd bargain.

And why not also remind me that the incredible "just the right pace" of the sluggish tf2 will ultimately lead the non-biased-game-media to declare tf2 as the "fun" and "good" and "visually impressive" game of year/century/millenium, especially because its game style is most similar to dods than Tf, but to which they, the non-sell-out game reviews will never admit to because they're "honest reviews."

But what's depth of gameplay when you get eye candy? Gameplay is not fun. Being told by valve that the game is fun - now that's how you know its fun. Because Valve said so. Depth and learning curves for gameplay is for suckers. It's all about taking nuances and intracacies out, because who wants to learn those?

I mean, who reads a book because of good character development, or the various philosophic or moral values that the authors try to get across. No, you must books because the covers are awsome. You can always judge a book by it's cover, my teacher used to say. And movies, who rates movies because depth of the plot or the value of its artistic styles? No one. You only give good ratings to movies that has sub par plot, or when something like a documentary has been directed as a chick flick. Because chick flick interpretation to documentaries are revolutionary. And documentaries should be willing to change into a chick flick, if there is a demand for change by the mass.

Less = more. Less options = more fun. More visuals = more gameplay. Less gameplay = more fun. Less speed = more gamplay. More gameplay = less fun. That's how real logic works. Valve said so, right at the same time they said that HL2 and ep1 is also FREE and that 50(though currently 45) usd for three games, 1 multiplayer and 2 singlplayer, is a bargain, except the black box which had those three games and was going to be 40 bucks, but not the FREE HL2 and Ep1.

And lets not forget, tf2 is visually impressive. Because that's what makes teamplay work, is the visual effects. Which by the way should ALWAYS be the main goal of any FPS game...fps without enforcing teamplay, and without punishing those who go solo flag hunting, is not fps gaming. Because by definition, FPS games MUST include tactical teamwork, to infiltrate and subvert. By the way did i mention that tf2 is visually impressive?

I just don't know what I would do if tf2 fans didn't happen to go out of their way to post how much they love tf2 in a FF forum and try to convince people like me who WANT TO BE CONVINCED that tf2 is a very good HISTORICALLY FOTRESS type game, instead of a remake of valves most played(hence most lucrative) games, CS, CSS, CZ, DOD, and DODS, even though the EVIDENCE suggests that tf2 might be DIFFERENT sort of "good game", that has very very very very very very very little to do with historically fortress type of games... I'm so glad that valve has not only overcharged their customers, but had also the support from fans they're going to screw over in the future, when they come out with TF3 and all the classes end up with guns from the vietnam war, and add the realistic aspect of not respawning, until round restarts.

Thanks valve. And thanks tf2 fan guys who insist that they love both games, but but would rather promote tf2 in FF forum, instead of helping the FF mod by suggesting ideas for improving visuals and helping to point out bugs and and suggest tweaks that could improve the gameplay further along. If it weren't for you guys, i might have missed the fact that tf2 is visually impressive. And that tactical teamplay that enforces the uniquness of each class is what defines a TF game.



This has to be a twighlight zone episode. It just has to be. It doesn't make sense otherwise. This is somekind of "The Outer Limits" episode. It must be.

[Desyphur]

Nope, sorry. Not twilight zone. My eyeballs would have fallen out by now. Or something.

[Norris]

Well what should we expect in this thread if we get responses from forum leaders like this:

Originally Posted by 4est

look up videos for ANY "team fortress" game and you will see that TF2 should not claim to be a "team fortress" game.

.. jeez.

[Rojola]

TF2 is really cool and different kind of TF game. I love it

FF is pretty cool too but I think it needs loads of work to make it better than TFC... Which was the goal I presume.

[SME]

Originally Posted by Norris

Well what should we expect in this thread if we get responses from forum leaders like this:


.. jeez.

Honesty? TF2 is not fortress, it's just using it's name. TF2, without grenades and infection, with a non-adjustable respawn delay is less than TF. It's like VanHagar is not REALLY Vanhalen, even if they play many of the same songs and kept the name. When you rip out major parts of fortress play, you can't really call it fortress anymore, imo.

[Andariel]

except this huge fucking post there i barely have anything read here in this thread, i can say i look forward to try tf2 once it is in the stores (i do not care i want to buy p0rtal and i need to make ep1 legal) and for me the problem will be the reduced gameplay, as an fan of mods like dystopia, kots2k(quake2) and Art of Ascension(still alpha, hl2pvprpgdm with global saved chars) gameplay is what matters there should be an high learning curve to any game, just to keep it being interesting (i love the descent series, learn THAT concjumper)

to all you childs here, you guys are laughable, a game like ff can be interesting, tf2 may be an fine shootout, but nothing compares to dystopia (i do play ff, but dystopia keeps me not looking at the clock, its tfcmark2, even when its not an instarespawnspamfest)

[Norris]

Originally Posted by SME

Honesty? TF2 is not fortress, it's just using it's name. TF2, without grenades and infection, with a non-adjustable respawn delay is less than TF. It's like VanHagar is not REALLY Vanhalen, even if they play many of the same songs and kept the name. When you rip out major parts of fortress play, you can't really call it fortress anymore, imo.

..
my google search for team fortress:

#1 team fortress is a class based multiplayer game.
#2 every player can choose between different classes which differ in weapon equipment, movement speed, resistance and special abilities.
#3 it's meant to be played in team coordination to use the strengths and weaknesses of unique classes to achieve objectives.
#4 TF has the following classes: Scout, Sniper, Soldier, Demolition Man, Medic, Heavy Weapons Guy, Pyro, Spy, Engineer
#5 Team Fortress consists of multiple gameplay modes.

ummm TF2 sounds pretty much like Team Fortress or am I mistaken?

[Thormier]

tf2 is completely different to any other fortress game any who says different obviously is not a fan of the fortress games

Oh and you probably prefer later Metallica too

[SME]

Originally Posted by Norris

google for team fortress:

#1 team fortress is a class based multiplayer game.
#2 every player can choose between different classes which differ in weapon equipment, movement speed, resistance and special abilities.
#3 it's meant to be played in team coordination to use the strengths and weaknesses of unique classes to achieve objectives.
#4 TF has the following classes: Scout, Sniper, Soldier, Demolition Man, Medic, Heavy Weapons Guy, Pyro, Spy, Engineer
#5 Team Fortress consists of multiple gameplay modes.

#1 check
#2 check
#3 check
#4 check
#5 check

Your 1 and 2 are basically the same, 2 just expands on 1.

#6 TF has primary and secondary grenades for each class, including emp, conc, nail, mirv, frag, gas, etc.
#6 ...
#7 TF has infections, which can be healed by your TEAM.
#7 ...
#8 TF has a fast paced, quick spawning, game play (not a long spawn delay)
#8 ...

TF has always had grenades and has had infection for many years. You can put your trust in google, I'll rely on what I know of TF. Google doesn't define TF, for me but it's clearly had major parts ripped out of it and it's NOT TF anymore.

[Norris]

Originally Posted by Thormier

tf2 is completely different to any other fortress game any who says different obviously is not a fan of the fortress games

Oh and you probably prefer later Metallica too

dude I played TF2 before the beta was out and said that the game is different. but it's still a Team Fortress game and pretty much worth the title TF2.

[summit]

Dr.Uudge: If you've read anything in this thread, you'll realise it's got nothing to do with what people do and don't like, it's why.

I can't speak for the others, but I'm no fanboy - being objective and using logic doesn't equate to being a fanboy.

My slice of advice if you want to help FF - don't contribute to the part of its community which is severely off putting to new players.

Summit, I'm not trying to be defensive. I'm merely restricting my post so I dont end up flaming you for being a complete idiot.

[Teh Hwoling Manz]

MERGE'D

COMMENCE THREAD SEX

[summit]

I never said you were being defensive if you're referring to the post I think you are (I was talking to SME).

If you can somehow find something wrong with what I'm saying - by all means, tell me. That's what forums are for, right? But so far half the posts here are either so incredibly bias and wrong, or just blind and ingnorant. Like I said, I really couldn't care less if people haven't even played the game and hate it, but when they try to tell me what's wrong with it when they haven't, or try to tell me something that isn't true, that's where I object.

You think you've had a hard time "restricting" your posts in the name of idiocy? Imagine how I feel ... (

[Thormier]

Im also not dissing tf2 , i actually quite like the game but its not way near as good as FF , i can just imagine a clan match in tf2 i woudlnt be able to play seriously and compete because id just be laughing so bad , i cant tell if thats a good thing or a bad thing lol

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by SME

Your 1 and 2 are basically the same, 2 just expands on 1.

#6 TF has primary and secondary grenades for each class, including emp, conc, nail, mirv, frag, gas, etc.
#6 ...
#7 TF has infections, which can be healed by your TEAM.
#7 ...
#8 TF has a fast paced, quick spawning, game play (not a long spawn delay)
#8 ...

TF has always had grenades and has had infection for many years. You can put your trust in google, I'll rely on what I know of TF. Google doesn't define TF, for me but it's clearly had major parts ripped out of it and it's NOT TF anymore.

TF has had grenades and infection for years since there has basically only been 1 version of the real game. TFC was just a port of that game to appease people who bought HL for TF2.

All those other fortress mods that have copied TF so it can be played on other game engines are done by third parties. Just because they decided to keep grenades and infenction does not mean that it is a MUST.

[Titan]

Originally Posted by SME

Honesty? TF2 is not fortress, it's just using it's name. TF2, without grenades and infection, with a non-adjustable respawn delay is less than TF. It's like VanHagar is not REALLY Vanhalen, even if they play many of the same songs and kept the name. When you rip out major parts of fortress play, you can't really call it fortress anymore, imo.

What he said^^

And bobthechainsaw..It's just my opinion..

[Dr.Uudge]

Originally Posted by summit

Dr.Uudge: If you've read anything in this thread, you'll realise it's got nothing to do with what people do and don't like, it's why.

I can't speak for the others, but I'm no fanboy - being objective and using logic doesn't equate to being a fanboy.

My slice of advice if you want to help FF - don't contribute to the part of its community which is severely off putting to new players.

No, actually i haven't read anything in this thread. And what i realize from not having read anything from the thread is that the "why" or the "reason" that fanboys insisting on trying to insist that tf2 is a fun fortress type game is because it's visually impressive and the tactical teamwork that is enforced by taking grenades out and movement enhancements for any type of soloing, which is a revolutionary approach for the fotress genre.

In the words of Chris Rock "You can drive with your feet if you want to. Don't make it a good fuckin idea."

What fortress gamers were hoping for, was valve's visual engine, minus the "i'm a toys R us kid," with all the gameplay that is included in FF. And i'm most certain, if FF were to be visually impressive as tf2, you're only left with taunts and gimicks like the critical hit, to support tf2.

If you go to the "pyro" section in steam forums, people have realized that the pyro is a cripple. They realize that he is ineffective with out grenades or IC. But instead of going "aw man, valve broke the pyro" they're in denial and go "wow man, valve has made the pyro so good because hecan do so much dmg upclose. even though that scout kill me with 2 hits from the bat. and i can't go 1v1 against soldier. And that sentry rips me apart. And that demo can out run my flames. But pyro is so powerful, in this class based system, where pyro fits as a yard def."

A normal person would find others who agree and voice their dismay at the broken pryo and suggest to valve, perhaps by a petition of some sort, to either let pyro be faster, or give him IC, or a nail gun, or something to make up for him being broke. Instead, as non-logical fanboys, their response "Taking grenades out and slowing everything down was the best move by vavle. Because now the pyro does more dmg/s in this specific ideally given situation."

And i forgot to meantion, that tf2 is visually impressive.

@summit - and i'm not trying to personally attack you or others that promote tf2. I apologize if thats what it seems like. I'm trying to use reason to let people see that if tf2 looked worse than FF, than really, FF would have been heralded as a faithful fortress recreation, by the mass, instead of tf2 being heralded as the "revolutionary fotress." TF2 probably is fun. But it's a different, non-fortress type of fun.

[mervaka]

http://forumplanet.gamespy.com/in_th...785/7200088/p1

Originally Posted by [GSI]ChiefPhillips

I don't think Fortress Forever is going to be shadowed by TF2, because like it's been said, it's night and day, black and white - two different games, a similar title. I was talking with Charlie Brown from Valve (who worked extensively on TF2), and I brought up the whole FF/TF2 debate, and he told me in total honesty that he and a LOT of Valve employees on the day it came out played it endlessly, the general consensus at Valve is that they love Fortress Forever.

And yeah, it has bugs, and some (definitely not all) models could use some help, but what you need to remember (and this goes for a lot of people for a lot of mods) is that these are modified games made by amateur volunteers who don't have marketing budgets and have to spread the work over a few hours a week for years, so what do you expect from them? I don't know where Half-Life mod players got this "we deserve the best, they owe it to us" attitude. Learn to model or map and join a mod team, you'll really understand what I say with my above statement. FF is one of the most complete feeling and polished mods that I've ever seen for any game, the amount of work these volunteers put in over the years is amazing, and they're one of the few mods that could build and keep the hype, and still have more players than Team Fortress Classic.

Yeah, TF2 has more players, but who's the multi-million dollar company who's been heavily marketing the game on web and in print, not to mention game conventions?

basically, thats exactly how i feel about this. people that come trolling in going LOL FF SUX should think about that.