Why Source engine?

[Beef Eater]

Since FF is pretty much a dying mod atm (Edit: correction, a dying mod in the pub scene, in Europe ), I think we should all point out the mistakes that were made (besides subpar advertising), so that these mistakes will be avoided in the future. Yes, I'm Captain Obvious.

With all due respect, I think, personally, that the choice of the Source engine for this mod, IMO, was one of those mistakes, IMHO.

This decision probably made sense to the original devs back when the TF2 project was dead. People wanted a SOURCE ENGINE sequel of TF(since HL2 used Source). If the original devs chose Source, they would get all the Valve followers with them to make the mod a success. However, most people got their Source based TF with TF2. "Why play a mod team's version when we have the real thing", right?

From a game design standpoint, Source wasn't a very smart choice for this game. It has terrible netcode (this is noticeable even in the sluggish TF2), and requires more minimum resources than a game of this kind should (even if they're relatively low for a modern game engine). Moreover, you're tied to Steam by default, and everyone who wants to play your mod/game have to own a Source game to do so. It's also not open source. Not a very good engine for a competitive game like this one. The only advantage I can think of is being able to join friends more easily.

If this project were started in 2009, I would personally choose the Warsow engine and make the mod a standalone game instead. Devs, I don't expect you to be able to switch engine now, unless you feel like rebooting the project entirely. If you ever reboot, though, keep this in mind, I guess

Discuss!

[Elmo]

I admit I didn't read it all... but.

I said something similar the other day with zelenjava. If only because of the pace of FF and the engines inability to cope with such a fast game (lag prediction etc).

I wasn't around when the mod was started so can only presume, as well as you can, the reasons for why it was made on the source engine. I'm sure there are many reasons for why it was chosen at the time.

I would presume that many of the interested original developers were used to the HL engine after making content for TFC. I guess it was easier to find the staff. In regards to what you said, I also presume that the warsow engine has improved since work on FF began.

[Circuitous]

Source was hot shit in '03, and more people have HL2 than Warsow.

[GenghisTron]

I wouldn't say that FF is 'dying', the pickup/league scene is pretty big right now. There's so many teams in UGC that clans are complaining we need more divisions.

As for FF's 'unpopularity', what do you expect, you have ~100 TFC players/veterans/legends who hate FF because it's easier, and would rather play an 11 year old game because it's harder.

Plus of course, the lack of advertising.

However, I highly doubt that more than %.001 of everyone who has ever played FF actually cares what engine it's played on. Let's be real here.

[Beef Eater]

Elmo: I guess the OP was a little tl; dr It's cool that a dev agrees with me! I realise the Warsow engine probably wasn't that good back when FF was started, I'm not even sure the game was released back then! That's why I said "If it was started in 2009" Right now the engine is pretty smokin'

Circuitous: Indeed! I believe Warsow engine is open-source, though? So one can make a stand-alone Warsow-engine based game? Actually, I'm not sure about this! I just always assumed it was. Does the Warsow SDK come with the Source code or is it locked down like Source SDK?

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

I wouldn't say that FF is 'dying', the pickup/league scene is pretty big right now. There's so many teams in UGC that clans are complaining we need more divisions.

Oh, that's great! Didn't know FF was that popular in comp I meant that it's not very popular in pubs, to clarify!

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

As for FF's 'unpopularity', what do you expect, you have ~100 TFC players/veterans/legends who hate FF because it's easier, and would rather play an 11 year old game because it's harder.

Plus of course, the lack of advertising.

Yup!

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

However, I highly doubt that more than %.001 of everyone who has ever played FF actually cares what engine it's played on. Let's be real here.

That's great, then they wouldn't be mad if the engine is switched!

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Beef Eater

That's great, then they wouldn't be mad if the engine is switched!

I think the developers who do this on their own time, for free would be mad.

There's also the fact that you have multiple developers that have experience with the HL engine.

This thread is 6 years late.

[Beef Eater]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

I think the developers who do this on their own time, for free would be mad.

There's also the fact that you have multiple developers that have experience with the HL engine.

Originally Posted by Beef Eater

Devs, I don't expect you to be able to switch engine now

And I'm aware of the fact many devs on the team only have GoldSrc/Source engine experience.

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

This thread is 6 years late.

Yes.

[Elmo]

haha "the dev team agrees"

I agree but I rarely consider the bigger picture of the game that was merely an opinion I had the other day while speaking to Zel.. Certainly not speaking on behalf of the team! It's rare that anyone on the team intentionally speaks for everyone!

Reading up again... (I don't know why I don't read it all before I post )

I got your point and I know you weren't suggesting we change it now
(as some people seem to have understood). But yeah..

My personal opinion is that if FF were started again, source would not be the ideal choice. Quake/UT/Warsow engine.. but not source. This is not based on any good grounding or knowledge of the others, however. Merely the types of games played on those engines are similar to FF and appear to better suit.

[Gwarsbane]

If FF was started today, I think the best engine choices would be....


Orange box (which is not the same as source engine) or Unreal Engine 3. UE3 is an amazing looking engine, and the UE3 makers have recently did something that was very cool.

You can make a full stand alone game for free, or even charge for it, but if you charge for it you have to buy a $99 license from them.

http://planetunreal.gamespy.com/fullstory.php?id=160621

[zelenjava]

Originally Posted by Beef Eater

Since FF is pretty much a dying mod atm, I think we should all point out the mistakes that were made (besides subpar advertising), so that these mistakes will be avoided in the future. Yes, I'm Captain Obvious.

With all due respect, I think, personally, that the choice of the Source engine for this mod, IMO, was one of those mistakes, IMHO.

This decision probably made sense to the original devs back when the TF2 project was dead. People wanted a SOURCE ENGINE sequel of TF(since HL2 used Source). If the original devs chose Source, they would get all the Valve followers with them to make the mod a success. However, most people got their Source based TF with TF2. "Why play a mod team's version when we have the real thing", right?

From a game design standpoint, Source wasn't a very smart choice for this game. It has terrible netcode (this is noticeable even in the sluggish TF2), and requires more minimum resources than a game of this kind should (even if they're relatively low for a modern game engine). Moreover, you're tied to Steam by default, and everyone who wants to play your mod/game have to own a Source game to do so. It's also not open source. Not a very good engine for a competitive game like this one. The only advantage I can think of is being able to join friends more easily.

If this project were started in 2009, I would personally choose the Warsow engine and make the mod a standalone game instead. Devs, I don't expect you to be able to switch engine now, unless you feel like rebooting the project entirely. If you ever reboot, though, keep this in mind, I guess

Discuss!

I completely agree, the net code on this game is so bad that at times i wonder if its really worth playing anymore. A view which is shared with others.. dreams of a warsow engine FF are to good to be true :P

[zelenjava]

honestly though, i'd vote for FF in a web browser as a mod for q3live . Surely that would get players

[pF]

Warsow runs on the Quake2 engine. You guys have got to be kidding. And while developing for UE3 is less of a hassle than Source, the latter is better suited for a wide range of hardware..

[Beef Eater]

QUOTES!!

Originally Posted by Elmo

haha "the dev team agrees"

I agree but I rarely consider the bigger picture of the game that was merely an opinion I had the other day while speaking to Zel.. Certainly not speaking on behalf of the team! It's rare that anyone on the team intentionally speaks for everyone!

Whoops, I was editing my post and changed the wording from "a member of the dev team" to "a dev" but the "team" slipped in too I didn't mean the whole dev team, will edit!

Originally Posted by Elmo

Reading up again... (I don't know why I don't read it all before I post )

I got your point and I know you weren't suggesting we change it now
(as some people seem to have understood). But yeah..

My personal opinion is that if FF were started again, source would not be the ideal choice. Quake/UT/Warsow engine.. but not source. This is not based on any good grounding or knowledge of the others, however. Merely the types of games played on those engines are similar to FF and appear to better suit.

Yeah, exactly!

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

If FF was started today, I think the best engine choices would be....


Orange box (which is not the same as source engine)

TF2 runs on that engine, its netcode is almost as bad as before :/

Originally Posted by zelenjava

I completely agree, the net code on this game is so bad that at times i wonder if its really worth playing anymore. A view which is shared with others.. dreams of a warsow engine FF are to good to be true :P

Indeed, it is too good to be true

Originally Posted by zelenjava

honestly though, i'd vote for FF in a web browser as a mod for q3live . Surely that would get players

Heh, Quake Live is nice It's too bad it's so locked down, no mod support, LAN support or player hosted server support... Wish they would keep updating Q3A with QL content and synchronize the two, sigh...

Originally Posted by pF

Warsow runs on the Quake2 engine. You guys have got to be kidding.

Well yes, in the same way Half-Life 2 runs on the GoldSrc engine. You've played Warsow, right? It runs on an improved Q2(Qfusion) and its graphics are pretty damn good. Not great but that's because of the art style. It also lacks ragdoll/object physics, something that hardly belongs in a Quake-like competitive fps anyway, for gameplay reasons. Also, netcode is great

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by Beef Eater

It also lacks ragdoll/object physics, something that hardly belongs in a Quake-like competitive fps anyway, for gameplay reasons.

fuck that, flying bodies/body parts is fucking epic

[elwood]

EPIC

[Bridget]

Realizing that this game was originally created to appeal to TFC veterans and not to the casual gamer, it should make some sense why the development team went with Source. It's arguably the easiest and most user-friendly engine to work with, the items you need to create your own mod are conviently packed into one package: The Source SDK. That's a plus for the devs.

For the audience, I imagine they wanted the game on an engine produced by the same guys who made the Goldsrc engine, so it was more a renovation than a brand new game and felt more 'at home'. Last, while it is necessary to utilize Steam to play Fortress Forever, the pros greatly outweigh the cons. If they wanted to 'populate' the game, what better place than Steam's content delivery system and the Steam Community?

I 'unno.

[zE]

the use of source engine to make ff was logic, and was the right choice : )

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by Beef Eater

QUOTES!!
Well yes, in the same way Half-Life 2 runs on the GoldSrc engine. You've played Warsow, right? It runs on an improved Q2(Qfusion) and its graphics are pretty damn good. Not great but that's because of the art style. It also lacks ragdoll/object physics, something that hardly belongs in a Quake-like competitive fps anyway, for gameplay reasons. Also, netcode is great

This is correct, it uses the more advanced Qfusion engine maintained by vic. And yes all the code is open source. If you think the netcode is great I'm assuming you haven't played 0.5 :P Anyway, the warsow project was nowhere near where it is now (qfusion shine, scripting support, etc) when FF was conceived and even developed so it's an unfair viewpoint really. The Source engine was naturally very complete and mature when released, and orange box brings cool 'stuff' like achievements that would otherwise not be an option. And the biggest thing to me is that Warsow has directly comparable player base to FF so they seem kind of in the same boat. Even quake live has a very small and stagnating active player base in the USA.

tldr; player count issue has nothing to do with engine selection these days. fast paced fps like quake and TF gameplay have largely taken a back seat to teamplay games designed for people with no attention span, like CoD, regardless of the engine

[pF]

Originally Posted by Beef Eater

Well yes, in the same way Half-Life 2 runs on the GoldSrc engine.

No.

[Beef Eater]

Originally Posted by reaper18

fuck that, flying bodies/body parts is fucking epic

You can get body parts... And bodies that you can blow up, unlike Source's clientside ragdolls

Originally Posted by Bridget

Realizing that this game was originally created to appeal to TFC veterans and not to the casual gamer, it should make some sense why the development team went with Source.

Casual gamers prefer a Warsow like engine?

Originally Posted by Bridget

It's arguably the easiest and most user-friendly engine to work with, the items you need to create your own mod are conviently packed into one package: The Source SDK. That's a plus for the devs.

I heard Warsow has an SDK too

Originally Posted by Bridget

For the audience, I imagine they wanted the game on an engine produced by the same guys who made the Goldsrc engine, so it was more a renovation than a brand new game and felt more 'at home'. Last, while it is necessary to utilize Steam to play Fortress Forever, the pros greatly outweigh the cons. If they wanted to 'populate' the game, what better place than Steam's content delivery system and the Steam Community?

I 'unno.

Yes, Source is the successor to GoldSrc, I realise that's why the original devs made FF for this engine... I addressed this in the OP.

As for being tied to Steam, I can't see any pro except Friends support, and maybe future Steamworks integration that could make the mod more popular. The cons are; Players need to have Steam running while playing the mod, and people who are interested in the mod need Steam and a Source game to play it. That limits the potential player base, I imagine.

Originally Posted by pF

No.

Comparing Warsow engine to Q2 is redundant, it has countless improvements. Most of all, it's better suited to the gameplay a TF game offers, without looking bad because of it. I don't believe hardcore TF players would care much about having better graphics than Q3/Warsow

Originally Posted by Dexter

This is correct, it uses the more advanced Qfusion engine maintained by vic. And yes all the code is open source. If you think the netcode is great I'm assuming you haven't played 0.5 :P

Hmm, I didn't play pre-4.2 Warsow but to me the netcode feels much better in 0.5... Are you talking about the removal of backwards reconcilation at a ping above 150, or not including rocket launcher in anti lag? I'll assume they're fixing that for the next version, they constantly try to improve the netcode

Originally Posted by Dexter

Anyway, the warsow project was nowhere near where it is now (qfusion shine, scripting support, etc) when FF was conceived and even developed so it's an unfair viewpoint really.

I never claimed it was, I merely said that if FF was started in 2009 I would personally want it to use the Warsow engine. A better option than Source back when FF was started would have been CPMA engine, I guess.

Originally Posted by Dexter

The Source engine was naturally very complete and mature when released, and orange box brings cool 'stuff' like achievements that would otherwise not be an option.

Yeah, achievements are cool but not that important especially for a multiplayer game IMO.

Originally Posted by Dexter

And the biggest thing to me is that Warsow has directly comparable player base to FF so they seem kind of in the same boat. Even quake live has a very small and stagnating active player base in the USA.

I dunno about US, but here in Sweden I rarely get more than 3 active pub servers here, whereas with Warsow I get about 20+ -100ping servers (just checked). I don't know anything about the league/pickup player base. But yes, Warsow isn't that popular.

Originally Posted by Dexter

tldr; player count issue has nothing to do with engine selection these days. fast paced fps like quake and TF gameplay have largely taken a back seat to teamplay games designed for people with no attention span, like CoD, regardless of the engine

Bloody COD
True, most players probably don't care about good netcode etc, but again, when using Source means you have to use Steam and own a Source game to play the mod/game, that limits the player base, if only by a bit. Installing a standalone game can seem like a simpler task than installing a Source mod, too