Merged: Disappointed TF2 and TF2 Impressions

[Dr.Uudge]

Here's what people mean when they say "dumbed down."

In the original wolfenstein, there was no jump. You basically went around and pointed your weapon crosshair at the enemy.

Duke Nukem 3D had mouse support, but that was made back in the days when aim with the keyboard was 1337. It's still 1337 to be aiming with the keyboard and getting a kill, but back those days, the game compensated your aim(rather, the lack thereof) buy shooting in the general direction of the enemy.

So if someone were to make a game today, in an age where "crouch jump," "double jump" and "trimping" is a norm for DM matches, or take out jumping all together, people would say "man, this game's dumbed down."

If there were a game made that, in today's age where aiming with your mouse is the norm, took the mouse support out, and forced a keyboard aim, but compensated the aiming(or the lack thereof) by letting you get kills even when you're only pointing in their general direction and not directly at them, people would say "man, this game has been dumbed down."

In an age of tfing, where conc jumping, rocket jumping, bhopping, grenade/rocket comboing, added to an overall rapid pace, in the effort to cap flags, if a game were to take those out, slow everything down, enforce respawn timing, only forced shooting weapons to be used, rather than include the various types of grenades, and force a DM match for classes who are not scouts(or perhaps even scouts), and therefore take away the option of escaping to fight another day, people will most likely say, "man, this game has been dumbed down."

[summit]

Cheers for the answer - was the latter stuff primarily from TFC? Or were traces in previous games? I'm just trying to work out where the perception came from that those elements were crucial to TF gameplay.

[Sureshot]

Originally Posted by benjpac

That isn't true at all. If you listen to the TF2 commentary giving their reasoning for the changes they explain that grenades made a lot of the classes too similar. Every class could easily take out a sentry gun in TFC because of grenades. In TF2 only 2 classes can easily take out a sentry gun. These classes are soldier and the spy (demoman can do it easily in some situations). This means you can't have 4 medic offenses, which for the most part means you need some more coordination. In TFC 4 good medics could run around not even talking to each other and win matches... because of their speed/concs communication was hardly even needed.

Now I'm not saying that a 4 medic offense isn't fun as hell... but I'm just telling you why grenades are a bad thing for team oriented gaming.

The problem with frag grenades is that they were too powerful in TF, so you could learn to rely on them. In FF, this issue has been addressed. SGs are a lot tougher to take down damage-wise and grenades are less dominating. Class-based grenades obviously gave more diversity.

Furthermore, I don't think just because only 2 classes can take down sentries easily is going to make people talk to each other more. Some clans use an offy soldier in their tactics already, primarily for SG takedown.

[Beast_Within]

I've posted my final Beta review in the Steam forums. Have a look if you're interested.

[Beast_Within]

I've posted my final Beta review in the Steam forums. Have a look if you're interested.

[Jackal]

I'll start off by saying i've had a ton of fun playing TF2 so far. That being said, i don't really like it. The game really isn't going to have any longevity for me. The pace is too slow for my personal enjoyment and i felt like every skill needed to play the game is learned in the first 5 minutes. I'm not on here complaining that TF2 is a bad game, it just doesn't fit with my preference on what a fortress game should be. The graphics style is breathtaking and it's an amazing breath of fresh air to be able to learn new maps, get lost, and play with new people. Yes it's a beta, but i honestly can't see Valve changing the core gameplay enough to make me enjoy it. Thats not a beef with Valve, i think they are fantastic. But in order to really make this a game i would enjoy for a long time, they would have to change far too much than practical.

TF2 IS a fortress game. The best teams are going to be those that use teamwork, not individual skill. I enjoyed TFC because it allowed you to use both those elements in conjunction to win matches. Those saying that TFC negated the team element in favor of individual skill are being very short sighted in their thinking. TFC rewarded both teamplay AND individual skill, while TF2 focuses entirely on the teamplay aspect, albeit Valve pulls this off very well. I played Dustbowl and had a great time, but then i remembered what the old dustbowl played like. Go watch the intro to Dust to Dust if you don't know what i'm talking about. Perfect example of non stop action where team work is prominently displayed. Pace does not define fortress gameplay, but it will decide individual enjoyment among players.

[Norris]

Originally Posted by Beast_Within

I've posted my final Beta review in the Steam forums. Have a look if you're interested.

just had a short look at your review and saw this:

Soldier: rocket jumping is weak and underpowered. Soldiers are too slow to get anywhere and the rockets are too slow to be useful. Don't bother with this guy. Just play a Scout.

stopped my read here. dude play again......

[Beast_Within]

I've put in about an hour with each class. I'm not sure how many rounds or lives that equates to, but it sure felt a like a lot with the Soldier. Everything he does, another class can do better.

[groovyf]

I'm fairly certain this perceived slowness is also down to the FOV. Locked at 70

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by Sureshot

The bottom line is that, from my experience, there is no more class interaction and co-operation than there was in any past TF game.

By the way, I am actually interested to hear an answer on this, I'm not just having a go. Am I being completely oblivious to something? Just what does 'more team-based' mean when people say it?

I think with the exception of competitive environments, the only way that there would be a teamplay incentive is if there is either:

a) a combo ability
b) some gameplay incentive for teamwork

TF2 has a, but it only has one instance of it. If there were more ways for people to do combos aside from the medic's invincibility dealie, then I would believe their marketingspeak about it being more "team-oriented".

In FF, there is team incentive all around, and that is in the Fortress Points. I get quite a bit of FP by helping out teammates (radiotag assists, repairing armor, healing, upgrading/repairing SGs... the list goes on). One can get nearly as many as they would soloing by being helpful. Since the game prioritizes FP on the scoreboard, it shows (philosophically and literally) that a player willing to help out his teammates is just as valuable as a player who is racking up the kills or flag caps solo.

[Dr.Uudge]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

Since the game prioritizes FP on the scoreboard, it shows (philosophically and literally) that a player willing to help out his teammates is just as valuable as a player who is racking up the kills or flag caps solo.

Amen. This is one of the core essence of tfing: complimentary concepts, while not taking away from the soloing concepts, and rewarding teamplay, while not punishing soloing.

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

In FF, there is team incentive all around, and that is in the Fortress Points. I get quite a bit of FP by helping out teammates (radiotag assists, repairing armor, healing, upgrading/repairing SGs... the list goes on). One can get nearly as many as they would soloing by being helpful. Since the game prioritizes FP on the scoreboard, it shows (philosophically and literally) that a player willing to help out his teammates is just as valuable as a player who is racking up the kills or flag caps solo.

With that said, I really haven't noticed much of a difference in the type of gameplay that occurs in a TFC pub vs a FF pub. The same type of stuff is going on, just that now more of that stuff is earning you FPs.

[phatfish]

Originally Posted by Beast_Within

I've put in about an hour with each class. I'm not sure how many rounds or lives that equates to, but it sure felt a like a lot with the Soldier. Everything he does, another class can do better.

He didn't feel overly slow to me, his nearest comparison is the Demoman, and while faster, the pipes dont match RPG's for accuracy. I found myself getting more frags with the Solider than any other class in dm situations. Espeically while being tanked by a Medic.

I tell you what does piss me off, getting continually knifed in the back by cloaked Spys. They are hard to see unless coming straight at you and the one hit kill from a knife in the back is overpowered. Maybe i'm just bitter because playing Spy and knifing people in the back makes it feel like a cheap kill, so i dont. Its just other assholes that do it to me

[Rawd]

Groovy, I think you are partially right. I started my own server and set FOV to 90 and it seems much faster, and less hard on the eyes. To bad you can't change FOV on other servers

[Weezy69]

Originally Posted by Rawd

Groovy, I think you are partially right. I started my own server and set FOV to 90 and it seems much faster, and less hard on the eyes. To bad you can't change FOV on other servers

yea i'd like to know who's bright idea it was to do that...it like seems as if they wanted the game to not only be as slow as possible..but to make it feel as slow as possible as well with the fov on 75..i mean wtf every single game i ever played ALWAYS defaulted at 90 the very least..go figure

[Beast_Within]

Originally Posted by phatfish

He didn't feel overly slow to me, his nearest comparison is the Demoman, and while faster, the pipes dont match RPG's for accuracy. I found myself getting more frags with the Solider than any other class in dm situations. Espeically while being tanked by a Medic.

I tell you what does piss me off, getting continually knifed in the back by cloaked Spys. They are hard to see unless coming straight at you and the one hit kill from a knife in the back is overpowered. Maybe i'm just bitter because playing Spy and knifing people in the back makes it feel like a cheap kill, so i dont. Its just other assholes that do it to me

You can't use the knife (or any weapon for that matter) while cloaked. If you mean that the spy is waiting for you to walk by, then unloaks and stabs you in the back because you're a slow-moving soldier, well, that's what spies are for.

[SME]

Originally Posted by summit

Haha I do hope you're kidding... scary thought if you're not

I'm intrigued by what makes people come to the conclusion things have been "dumbed" down - or is that just a poor way of saying it's different?

No, kid, I'm not. You claiming nonsense is common sense, is an opinion.

[4est]

Originally Posted by summit

Cheers for the answer - was the latter stuff primarily from TFC? Or were traces in previous games? I'm just trying to work out where the perception came from that those elements were crucial to TF gameplay.

It is the essence of TF. Look up old QWTF vids and you will see just how "tame" TFC actually was. While you are at it... look up videos for ANY "team fortress" game and you will see that TF2 should not claim to be a "team fortress" game.

QWTF - http://youtube.com/watch?v=_zeJ_V6lTYE
ETF - http://youtube.com/watch?v=vYkQAU35LwI
ETF - http://youtube.com/watch?v=0H5EfyyKcQc
TFC - http://youtube.com/watch?v=kRrjh8yp5yE Skills Vid
Q3F - http://youtube.com/watch?v=bmVvEKePOjY
Q4F - http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ou8T1RfOTho

From what I can tell by looking at videos and everyone's opinons. TF2 does seem dumbed down, different in a bad way.

But really, that won't stop me from buying it, the crappy Cell shading like graphics turn me off. Same with them slowing it down, I'm into fast paced games, I don't want to waste my game time watching a count down.

[Sureshot]

TFDE2 is a good'un.