Spies and disguises

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

Why did he not build it near supplies? It takes you less than a second to get supplies for your sg if you build it in a good place. Not to mention, there's usually another person defending the sg.

You can't always have a sentry gun in an optimal firing position and near supplies. If you build a sentry gun near the flag in well, you have no choice but to visit the attic for supplies. If you build it near the attic elevator, it'll be even easier to sabotage it.

Yes, there could be another defender, but I already explained how it's possible to get past him.

Why wouldn't that soldier have shot at the engineer to see if he was a spy or not? It would've cost him nothing. That means the soldier was a bad player. Do you understand the point now? If he had shot at the engineer, he would've found out it was a spy and would've destroyed him with another rocket.

I don't see how this is hard to understand.

He didn't shoot me, I got through and I sabotaged the sentry gun for massive damage. I don't see how that is hard to understand. The point I was trying to make is that he believed I was the same engineer who just left the area. He didn't feel any need to spy check me (even with friendly fire off) because he was convinced I was friendly.

Originally Posted by lollerskates

You can't always have a sentry gun in an optimal firing position and near supplies. If you build a sentry gun near the flag in well, you have no choice but to visit the attic for supplies. If you build it near the attic elevator, it'll be even easier to sabotage it.

Yes, there could be another defender, but I already explained how it's possible to get past him.


He didn't shoot me, I got through and I sabotaged the sentry gun for massive damage. I don't see how that is hard to understand. The point I was trying to make is that he believed I was the same engineer who just left the area. He didn't feel any need to spy check me (even with friendly fire off) because he was convinced I was friendly.

If he knew spies existed and that they could disguise as other classes, he would've shot you, heard you grunt and then killed you. You cannot fool good players for longer than a few seconds.

Even if you can't guild an SG near supplies, you can still walk backwards watching it and if someone goes near it, you shoot them and it interrupts them.

Please, go download gamecam, turn it on and go do what you're saying. I will gladly watch it and if you actually face good players that do spychecks on every person they meet and still manage to sabotage an SG, I will stop bringing this issue up. Or if you'd rather, give me a name of a server with packed people and pick a spy. I'll spec and watch you "sabotage the sentry gun for massive damage" while a good and aware engineer is present.

Before you do that though, answer me this - What do you think a spy's job is?

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

If he knew spies existed and that they could disguise as other classes, he would've shot you, heard you grunt and then killed you. You cannot fool good players for longer than a few seconds.

He thought I was friendly because I was clever enough, therefore he didn't shoot. End of story.

Even if you can't guild an SG near supplies, you can still walk backwards watching it and if someone goes near it, you shoot them and it interrupts them.

In this case that wouldn't have worked.

Please, go download gamecam, turn it on and go do what you're saying. I will gladly watch it and if you actually face good players that do spychecks on every person they meet and still manage to sabotage an SG, I will stop bringing this issue up. Or if you'd rather, give me a name of a server with packed people and pick a spy. I'll spec and watch you "sabotage the sentry gun for massive damage" while a good and aware engineer is present.

I really CBA to do any of that, and I don't have to prove anything to you. Just because you suck at spying doesn't mean everyone else does, and just because a spy manages to fool a defender doesn't mean the defender is a clueless moron.

Before you do that though, answer me this - What do you think a spy's job is?

A spy's job is to destroy sentry guns, kill defenders, cause confusion and report enemy positions and movements to teammates. In maps like shutdown2 a spy can turn off enemy defenses. I guess spies can also capture flags, but I don't like to do that.

Originally Posted by lollerskates

He thought I was friendly because I was clever enough, therefore he didn't shoot. End of story.

Sigh.

[v3rtigo]

As a spy, you can be very smart and evade lots of people, but there will always be points or whatever that will completely stop a spy in his path. No amount of being sneaky or clever is going to work when there is someone who is always spychecking everyone. Good players on def always spycheck everyone if they know a spy is around, therefore, the example lollerskates used does not apply to most situations. That is exactly what we're brainstorming about here, something to counter the instant "I found you, you're dead" thing that every spy encounters more than once.

At this point, you can argue as to whether the spy should be able to get past these points by himself or if he needs help from his teammates to accomplish this. I myself think the spy should have at least one ability that allows him or her to get past, even if the chance of using it successfully is slim. The example I brought up is one of those things, it's risky and only works if you time it right, but can be effective if used properly. Also keep in mind that bigger maps already give spies more lee-way while smaller maps will make things significantly harder, but that is mostly map-tactics and deciding which class you will use on what map.

In short, the spy has an Achilles' heel that can instantly make the spy obsolete again in competitive play. If this weakness was hard to find/exploit, then it'd simply be called effective anti-spy measures, but the problem is that every player can do it because it requires no real effort or sacrifice. Therefore, most people suggest something along the lines of no grunting noises because this is the quickest, easiest way of fixing things without upsetting balance much.

I'm sure that good spies will be able to wreak havoc regardless of spychecks, but that is either because the skill gap between the players is large or because the map or teammates allow(s) him to. To put it bluntly, you cannot get to the flag on your own when there is a functional defense, no matter how clever or skilled you are. Once the enemy knows there is a spy, you're not going to get past those defenders. At this point, you could say that if this were the case then you need to change class, but that'd be the same as saying that a medic/scout should go HWguy because people keep killing him.

[Meathook]

you cant outsmart shooting everyone.

those that shoot everyone have outsmarted the devs.

[lollerskates]

This discussion (and many others like it) seems to boil down to "how can we make the spy invincible?" I just can't understand why everyone keeps demanding more and more abilities when we already have enough.

People shouldn't even be talking about clan matches. In order for a spy to be able to do something in clan matches (besides zerg rushing the sentry gun) the game would have to be radically altered, and then the spy would be overkill on public servers.

Every class will eventually run into a wall. FF isn't a singleplayer game where you must be able to handle everything.

Originally Posted by lollerskates

This discussion (and many others like it) seems to boil down to "how can we make the spy invincible?" I just can't understand why everyone keeps demanding more and more abilities when we already have enough.

People shouldn't even be talking about clan matches. In order for a spy to be able to do something in clan matches (besides zerg rushing the sentry gun) the game would have to be radically altered, and then the spy would be overkill on public servers.

Every class will eventually run into a wall. FF isn't a singleplayer game where you must be able to handle everything.

Yes, temporarily being able to remove the grunt sound when hit while disguised will make the spy invulnerable. Yes, that will make the spy a godly machine of death that can destroy a whole team simply by not grunting when disguised. Yup. Not grunting will destroy this game. Mmhmm.

[lollerskates]

I'm not talking about just this thread. It seems like every time some inept spy runs into a problem or can't figure out how to do something, he wants the dev team to fix it. Spies seem to have this notion that they should be unstoppable, and without too much effort.

Originally Posted by lollerskates

I'm not talking about just this thread. It seems like every time some inept spy runs into a problem or can't figure out how to do something, he wants the dev team to fix it. Spies seem to have this notion that they should be unstoppable, and without too much effort.

Right. Difference being is that this issue is unavoidable and even the most skilled person in the world can't get passed it.

I asure you, I am not an inept spy, nor is v3rtigo(saw you playing a few hours back on well/sd ;o).

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

Right. Difference being is that this issue is unavoidable and even the most skilled person in the world can't get passed it.

Then I must be very skilled.

Originally Posted by lollerskates

Then I must be very skilled.

Or facing people who do not even know what a spy is. That or you're trolling.

[v3rtigo]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

Right. Difference being is that this issue is unavoidable and even the most skilled person in the world can't get passed it.

This is what it all boils down to, the invisible wall. Teamwork must be able to overcome this wall and in that aspect, the spy is fine as he is. The problem is that the spy is not a team player, or at least for the most part he isn't. A spy simply cannot rely on teamwork everytime just to get close to the flag or even a sentry gun because:

# his team is not always around
# his team gets killed too fast
# his team gets in the way or blows his cover

I'm sure you can think of a few other reasons, but the main point is that the spy is mostly forced to wait and be patient in order to penetrate the enemy base deeper. Only during chaos can a spy enter relatively easy, that is to say, the defenders are dead and/or out of position/distracted. To create this chaos, you need at least 2 or 3 people, who need to come all the way from your own base to the enemy's. This all costs time and even then success is not guaranteed, far from it actually. One wrong move and you can start all over. Therefore, in situations like this, the spy cannot fulfill his role as a support class, let alone do fancy stuff like sabotaging.

We are suggestion a hole in this pattern, something that allows the spy to increase his chance of success in bypassing the first layer(s) of defense. Something that will require either great skill to use effectively or resources (health) but can be used solo, without the help of his teammates. Without it, the spy will quickly lose his usefulness in clan matches meaning you would be better off playing as a medic which brings you back to the TFC situation.

My solution is simple: FOV 150 + sidestabbing + lots of practice and you stand a fair chance against most defenses. But since that is unlikely to happen, something will have to replace it. Since currently the most obvious way to check for spies is the grunt noise, a solution will probably have to be found there.

Oh and lollerskates, there is no way in hell you will get past a decent defense if they have been set up properly and are composed of 'good' players. Pubs don't count because everything is a huge mess and everybody is doing whatever they please. If you're so sure you're right, please feel free to post a demo or something so you can convince us.

Whoa, careful there v3rtigo. All that logic might make his head explode.

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

Or facing people who do not even know what a spy is.

Or maybe I just know how to fool people.

That or you're trolling.

Yes, I'm trolling because I don't wait for the dev team to bail me out when I'm having problems. That must be it.

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

My solution is simple: FOV 150 + sidestabbing + lots of practice and you stand a fair chance against most defenses. But since that is unlikely to happen, something will have to replace it. Since currently the most obvious way to check for spies is the grunt noise, a solution will probably have to be found there.

How would sidestabbing allow you to get past defenses?

Oh and lollerskates, there is no way in hell you will get past a decent defense if they have been set up properly and are composed of 'good' players. Pubs don't count because everything is a huge mess and everybody is doing whatever they please. If you're so sure you're right, please feel free to post a demo or something so you can convince us.

Pubs do count, clan matches don't. I already said that spying is a fool's errand in clan matches.

[v3rtigo]

Go play TFC with FOV 150 and learn how to front/side-stab. You will find that you can kill any class with a well aimed swing. You usually lose alot of health or your life but there is a chance of succes (based on your skill).

Surely, it will not work on every defense, but I have slashed my way through more than one defender to get to the flag. This was of course in pubs, in clan matches it's alot harder to do.

Oh and to say that clan matches don't count pretty much shows us where your 'knowledge' comes from. Also, the spy was buffed in order to be useful in these types of competitive play.

Originally Posted by lollerskates

Or maybe I just know how to fool people.


Yes, I'm trolling because I don't wait for the dev team to bail me out when I'm having problems. That must be it.


How would sidestabbing allow you to get past defenses?


Pubs do count, clan matches don't. I already said that spying is a fool's errand in clan matches.

Last reply to you. I'll try to make this as clear as possible just in case you're not actually trolling.

You
Cannot
Fool
Anyone
When
All
It
Requires
Is
One
Hit
From
Anything
To
Figure
Out
You
Are
A
Spy

I honestly can't believe someone can be that dense.

[v3rtigo]

True, but you don't always need to fool them. In fact, giving them the slip while they know you're a spy usually gets them all hyper-active and makes them sloppy. However, you simply cannot always get away unless you resort to some drastic measures like grenade jumping, but that obviously shouldn't be the next standard way of getting into the enemies' base.

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

Go play TFC with FOV 150 and learn how to front/side-stab. You will find that you can kill any class with a well aimed swing. You usually lose alot of health or your life but there is a chance of succes (based on your skill).

Surely, it will not work on every defense, but I have slashed my way through more than one defender to get to the flag. This was of course in pubs, in clan matches it's alot harder to do.

I thought you were talking about infiltration, not gunning down the defense. Killing defenders isn't a problem, you've got tranqs, backstabs, grenades and the super shotgun.

Oh and to say that clan matches don't count pretty much shows us where your 'knowledge' comes from. Also, the spy was buffed in order to be useful in these types of competitive play.

Yes, my knowledge comes from pub servers. So what? I don't play clan matches and I'm not interested in them.

Originally Posted by omgpewpewlazerzz

Last reply to you. I'll try to make this as clear as possible just in case you're not actually trolling.

You
Cannot
Fool
Anyone
When
All
It
Requires
Is
One
Hit
From
Anything
To
Figure
Out
You
Are
A
Spy

I honestly can't believe someone can be that dense.

I have fooled people. Many times. You're trying to make the facts fit your theory. Stop dragging others down to your level.

[v3rtigo]

We all have fooled people, lots of them. That isn't the hard part, the hard part is fooling people who are on the look-out, aware and experienced. Those usually are not found in pubs.