09-26-2007, 04:42 PM | #41 | ||
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Yes, there could be another defender, but I already explained how it's possible to get past him. Quote:
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09-26-2007, 04:52 PM | #42 | |
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Even if you can't guild an SG near supplies, you can still walk backwards watching it and if someone goes near it, you shoot them and it interrupts them. Please, go download gamecam, turn it on and go do what you're saying. I will gladly watch it and if you actually face good players that do spychecks on every person they meet and still manage to sabotage an SG, I will stop bringing this issue up. Or if you'd rather, give me a name of a server with packed people and pick a spy. I'll spec and watch you "sabotage the sentry gun for massive damage" while a good and aware engineer is present. Before you do that though, answer me this - What do you think a spy's job is? |
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09-26-2007, 05:40 PM | #43 | ||||
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09-26-2007, 05:49 PM | #44 | |
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09-26-2007, 06:04 PM | #45 |
Lock 'n Loll!
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Class/Position: Scout, Spy, Sniper Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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As a spy, you can be very smart and evade lots of people, but there will always be points or whatever that will completely stop a spy in his path. No amount of being sneaky or clever is going to work when there is someone who is always spychecking everyone. Good players on def always spycheck everyone if they know a spy is around, therefore, the example lollerskates used does not apply to most situations. That is exactly what we're brainstorming about here, something to counter the instant "I found you, you're dead" thing that every spy encounters more than once.
At this point, you can argue as to whether the spy should be able to get past these points by himself or if he needs help from his teammates to accomplish this. I myself think the spy should have at least one ability that allows him or her to get past, even if the chance of using it successfully is slim. The example I brought up is one of those things, it's risky and only works if you time it right, but can be effective if used properly. Also keep in mind that bigger maps already give spies more lee-way while smaller maps will make things significantly harder, but that is mostly map-tactics and deciding which class you will use on what map. In short, the spy has an Achilles' heel that can instantly make the spy obsolete again in competitive play. If this weakness was hard to find/exploit, then it'd simply be called effective anti-spy measures, but the problem is that every player can do it because it requires no real effort or sacrifice. Therefore, most people suggest something along the lines of no grunting noises because this is the quickest, easiest way of fixing things without upsetting balance much. I'm sure that good spies will be able to wreak havoc regardless of spychecks, but that is either because the skill gap between the players is large or because the map or teammates allow(s) him to. To put it bluntly, you cannot get to the flag on your own when there is a functional defense, no matter how clever or skilled you are. Once the enemy knows there is a spy, you're not going to get past those defenders. At this point, you could say that if this were the case then you need to change class, but that'd be the same as saying that a medic/scout should go HWguy because people keep killing him. |
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09-26-2007, 06:09 PM | #46 |
you cant outsmart shooting everyone.
those that shoot everyone have outsmarted the devs. |
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09-26-2007, 06:47 PM | #47 |
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This discussion (and many others like it) seems to boil down to "how can we make the spy invincible?" I just can't understand why everyone keeps demanding more and more abilities when we already have enough.
People shouldn't even be talking about clan matches. In order for a spy to be able to do something in clan matches (besides zerg rushing the sentry gun) the game would have to be radically altered, and then the spy would be overkill on public servers. Every class will eventually run into a wall. FF isn't a singleplayer game where you must be able to handle everything. |
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09-26-2007, 06:58 PM | #48 | |
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Yes, temporarily being able to remove the grunt sound when hit while disguised will make the spy invulnerable. Yes, that will make the spy a godly machine of death that can destroy a whole team simply by not grunting when disguised. Yup. Not grunting will destroy this game. Mmhmm. |
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09-26-2007, 07:07 PM | #49 |
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I'm not talking about just this thread. It seems like every time some inept spy runs into a problem or can't figure out how to do something, he wants the dev team to fix it. Spies seem to have this notion that they should be unstoppable, and without too much effort.
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09-26-2007, 07:18 PM | #50 | |
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I asure you, I am not an inept spy, nor is v3rtigo(saw you playing a few hours back on well/sd ;o). |
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09-26-2007, 07:32 PM | #51 | |
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09-26-2007, 07:39 PM | #52 | |
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Or facing people who do not even know what a spy is. That or you're trolling. |
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09-26-2007, 07:42 PM | #53 | |
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# his team is not always around # his team gets killed too fast # his team gets in the way or blows his cover I'm sure you can think of a few other reasons, but the main point is that the spy is mostly forced to wait and be patient in order to penetrate the enemy base deeper. Only during chaos can a spy enter relatively easy, that is to say, the defenders are dead and/or out of position/distracted. To create this chaos, you need at least 2 or 3 people, who need to come all the way from your own base to the enemy's. This all costs time and even then success is not guaranteed, far from it actually. One wrong move and you can start all over. Therefore, in situations like this, the spy cannot fulfill his role as a support class, let alone do fancy stuff like sabotaging. We are suggestion a hole in this pattern, something that allows the spy to increase his chance of success in bypassing the first layer(s) of defense. Something that will require either great skill to use effectively or resources (health) but can be used solo, without the help of his teammates. Without it, the spy will quickly lose his usefulness in clan matches meaning you would be better off playing as a medic which brings you back to the TFC situation. My solution is simple: FOV 150 + sidestabbing + lots of practice and you stand a fair chance against most defenses. But since that is unlikely to happen, something will have to replace it. Since currently the most obvious way to check for spies is the grunt noise, a solution will probably have to be found there. Oh and lollerskates, there is no way in hell you will get past a decent defense if they have been set up properly and are composed of 'good' players. Pubs don't count because everything is a huge mess and everybody is doing whatever they please. If you're so sure you're right, please feel free to post a demo or something so you can convince us. |
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09-26-2007, 07:54 PM | #54 |
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Whoa, careful there v3rtigo. All that logic might make his head explode.
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09-26-2007, 07:57 PM | #55 | ||||
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09-26-2007, 07:57 PM | #56 |
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Go play TFC with FOV 150 and learn how to front/side-stab. You will find that you can kill any class with a well aimed swing. You usually lose alot of health or your life but there is a chance of succes (based on your skill).
Surely, it will not work on every defense, but I have slashed my way through more than one defender to get to the flag. This was of course in pubs, in clan matches it's alot harder to do. Oh and to say that clan matches don't count pretty much shows us where your 'knowledge' comes from. Also, the spy was buffed in order to be useful in these types of competitive play. |
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09-26-2007, 08:00 PM | #57 | |
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Last reply to you. I'll try to make this as clear as possible just in case you're not actually trolling. You Cannot Fool Anyone When All It Requires Is One Hit From Anything To Figure Out You Are A Spy I honestly can't believe someone can be that dense. |
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09-26-2007, 08:03 PM | #58 |
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True, but you don't always need to fool them. In fact, giving them the slip while they know you're a spy usually gets them all hyper-active and makes them sloppy. However, you simply cannot always get away unless you resort to some drastic measures like grenade jumping, but that obviously shouldn't be the next standard way of getting into the enemies' base.
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09-26-2007, 08:18 PM | #59 | |||
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09-26-2007, 08:20 PM | #60 |
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We all have fooled people, lots of them. That isn't the hard part, the hard part is fooling people who are on the look-out, aware and experienced. Those usually are not found in pubs.
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