Turtling Defense

[Doughnut-4|4-]

This old post caught my eye about Defensive Medic. Many argued it didn't work and others said it did. The fact that the topic was even brought up demands some truth, but I'm not here to argue the relevance.
http://www.fortress-forever.com/foru...efensive+Medic
o_nezumi made a solid discovery in the post, "I think a large part of the problem with TFC, in terms of competitive play, is that the maps weren't designed for it."

Having this thread in mind I wanted to bring up a new thread discussing map design and Turtling (The term given to a team usually in league play that converts their entire team to defense, once obtaining a decisive point lead). Some maps are impossible to turtle (enclave) while others seem impossible to resist turtling (2fort). I really don't have anything else to say except, I hope map designers avoid turtle map creation when possible, but not at the risk of compromising a fun map layout. I also want to know what others have to say about Turtling.

[4est]

The FF maps by the devs, tend to be more open, have wider halls and rounded corners. These maps facilitate movement. That being said, if you have 7D on a map, it's going to get locked down. Leagues will still need max D rules.

[mistermojo]

Class based ctf simply doesn't work with turtling, no matter what map it is. The reason is that because there is no spawn timer, the offence can't make a big enough impact on the d (health wise or kill them) because d will spawn or resupply in seconds, and all the effort o went through to kill some will be undone

[Jetpac]

i agree with both sides of the argument in that thread.

The medic does have the stopping power needed, IF used as a roaming class. because as was said any attackers comming through should be fairly wounded ad even if they get a way a medic can chase.

with regards to turtling if you dump 8 guys on D its going to be nearly impossible on pretty much any map to get to the flag, and even if you do it wouldnt be enough to upset the league because of the number of waves it would take to get to it every time.

[Doughnut-4|4-]

...d will spawn or resupply in seconds, and all the effort o went through to kill some will be undone

undone assuming the defense can get back in position within seconds... as is the case on almost every map... but there are a rare few maps which I believe can't be turtled very well and these are generally the maps where offense vs offense is acceptable (epicenter & enclave come to mind).

I try to design most my maps small with multiple routes through the middle of the map to prevent offense vs offense and to encourage offensive soldiers. It's my belief that if the map doesn't encourage midmap killing (by having multi-routes), the attackers will have greater success at capping no matter how many are inside.

Sorry, I keep getting more thoughts. I think I said this already but low scoring maps are turtle friendly for obvious reasons. This maybe why I prefer Offensive maps in general (Scores over 100).

[mistermojo]

yes, maps that aren't true ctf which aren't played that much

also if you make a map that's against turtling, it will be way too hard to defend without having more d since it would have to be more wide open, more entrances, etc

[Foxtrick]

This is where I'll bring in the map Well example. You see, part of the argument that defence can respawn in seconds as can fall straight back into place much faster than a offy can get to the enemy door again, is completely true. Yet the map is built in such a great way, that if your that FR sol or engi that has died, you have a long time to get back up in place, meaning that once a crack appears defencesively in the map Well, and just one offy makes it to the FR, its practically very open and fair game, plus it tests the FD soldiers in reacting positionally flag movement wise.

Ofcourse what im referring to is map Well's, one solid choke point, the duo of soldiers at the FD Backed by a engi/sol/demo in RR. For a map like Well, its beautiful, since the FR is so open.

A rule of thumb I would stick by certainly in map design for FF, is how defendable is the main one or two chokepoints, if its very tight, expand the FR massively and rooms linking to the choke points(we assume as not just being entrances but only exits too)

As much as Well got flamed alot, it certainly proved really good in this aspect.

I always thought turtling was when you needed a shit, how can Ali G be wrong

edit: ow nm lol

[GhOsT]

It's when your team builds up a lead and then has everyone fall back and defend to protect the lead. It's a really effective strategy so people hate it. It's the reason why there are max defense rules in leagues.

[magzy]

It means both

also, Is this just american leagues that have max def rules? Im sure EU ones dont

[magzy]

also, people have failed mention how extremely fun it is to do, having 6/7/8 people all in your base defending like crazy is brilliant. I remember a game i played on nyx when we went a couple of extra def for the last couple of minutes, was hilarious.

[mervaka]

so has anyone thought of an effective way of stopping such things happening without silly rules? no? thought not.

[Ihmhi]

Best counter to turtling? Spy. More boots on the ground in the enemy base means more of a chance to get around them.

I recall in TFC I was running O Spy, going for the flag. Enemy team was up one cap and were trying to hold us out for the game timer to run out.

I went down their spiral disguised as a Red Solly. One of them saw me and chucked a couple rockets at me, but I made it around the bend. I get down into the basement and grab the flag. I run out long hall and see a Soldier outside the flag room running towards spiral. I figure maybe I can knife him or something.

As soon as I get out of the long hall, I see three Soldiers at the bottom spiral. My first thought is that I am completely fucked... except they are all rocketing each other because each thinks one of the other two is me in disguise. I run behind the three geniuses and go up the spiral, and make it to the top spiral with the flag. \o/

MOAR D = more ways in for the Spy. The best thing a Spy does is drive the enemy team to the point of paranoia and they go around shooting everyone, mwa ha.

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by mervaka

so has anyone thought of an effective way of stopping such things happening without silly rules? no? thought not.

Of course not. Most people would rather take the easy way out and just make rules limiting the strategies you can use.

[kam]

Originally Posted by magzy

also, Is this just american leagues that have max def rules? Im sure EU ones dont

just yanks it seems
lockdowns are the greatest

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

Best counter to turtling? Spy. More boots on the ground in the enemy base means more of a chance to get around them.

I recall in TFC I was running O Spy, going for the flag. Enemy team was up one cap and were trying to hold us out for the game timer to run out.

I went down their spiral disguised as a Red Solly. One of them saw me and chucked a couple rockets at me, but I made it around the bend. I get down into the basement and grab the flag. I run out long hall and see a Soldier outside the flag room running towards spiral. I figure maybe I can knife him or something.

As soon as I get out of the long hall, I see three Soldiers at the bottom spiral. My first thought is that I am completely fucked... except they are all rocketing each other because each thinks one of the other two is me in disguise. I run behind the three geniuses and go up the spiral, and make it to the top spiral with the flag. \o/

MOAR D = more ways in for the Spy. The best thing a Spy does is drive the enemy team to the point of paranoia and they go around shooting everyone, mwa ha.

It's an awful counter that's too easy to spot unless the nme def doesn't voice check

[aflaedge]

I love to turtle. I agree that some maps are bigger / wide open and thus provide the space needed to circumvent my choke points, but that doesn't stop me from trying. As much as people hated the teleporter, it was always a solid way to bust up turtling by keeping the flow of people coming across the map. Design the maps however you guys like, but know it is gonna happen. Defensive battles, siege warfare, and trenches are as old as time with mixed success on real battles fields. Just because you can't cap an extra 15 times a map doesn't make the map less fun, just more challenging.

[Jiggles]

Clans that were really good at turtling (those that actually practiced it!) made matches rather un-fun. They only had to get ahead by one/two cap(s) (depending on the map), then they would either drop everyone to defense (but send the occasional spy to sneak out caps when the other side has no/little defense), or keep the offense attacking, but have them chase every enemy O they see. Quite simply, All D > All O, on most CTF maps. And even if it's not, having to get through 8-9 coordinated players before even seeing a flag gets old, fast. Then, throw in defensive teleporters for even more "fun".

I'll be the first to say that many leagues added too many "fair play" rules, but there was a decent reason behind this one. Having the match decided by the first or second cap (which is often within the first 5 minutes of play) is dull, in my opinion.

[magzy]

Yeah, i agree it can be extremely boring for the attacking team. However, the EU leagues dont seem to enforce a rule about it, and I have very very rarely seen it actually happen. Like only once or twice in all my clanning days. Perhaps you yanks are just lamer players.

[Jiggles]

Yeah, probably. Hello CNBL.