FF 2.3 released!

[xks]

Originally Posted by caesium

xks: the new sg system is already implemented in the dev version but has not been configured yet. the new system basically makes it much more of a significant step to take down the sg (which makes offy more rewarding, varied, and interesting), and this then also allows us to make the sg more powerful at higher levels without unbalancing the game. i think it will be a big improvement.

Sounds interesting.

How long can we expect to wait before we see a change like this?

[~kev~]

The sentry gun model looks dull, maybe some of the chrome was taken out?

Besides that, the game play was solid and fun.

[GeoKill----->]

Sg skin was not changed

[bowser]

personally i disagree with caesiums logic on sd2. it was fine the way it was.

also is there a version of sd2 that doesnt have these changes?

also in regards to a sniper limit on a map. i dont see why that is necessary it should be server side.

[Hawk Eye]

Originally Posted by bowser

also in regards to a sniper limit on a map. i dont see why that is necessary it should be server side.

Some mappers choose to disallow heavies, pyros, etc. on certain teams etc. etc.

It's just to please the mapper to fit how he believes the map would be best played. The server owners can still modify aardvark, just as they can any other map.

[!nF3D4L]

Originally Posted by Hawk Eye

Some mappers choose to disallow heavies, pyros, etc. on certain teams etc. etc.

It's just to please the mapper to fit how he believes the map would be best played. The server owners can still modify aardvark, just as they can any other map.

yeah.. its just like in the tfc version of destroy the pyros spawned in the little box..

and on a random note .. it isnt xmas anymore hawk eye

[im2cool4uroflolz]

I want someone to release a version of original SD2. I'T'S WORTH THE SPAWN

[caesium]

Originally Posted by bowser

personally i disagree with caesiums logic on sd2. it was fine the way it was.

it was definitely not fine the way it was:

1) it was unbalanced in its reward for dm offy. this isn't a _major_ problem until you play against a really good defence (or just one much btr than you) and find that you need to dm the ramp def to let your team pass him effectively enough to pose a real threat to the bl, and then you'll find that when you do manage to kill the ramp def he just spawns right back in position with grens and fully loaded half the time... this is really really dumb, and makes ppl want to `quit, which is what many new players will do when they play the map v better teams if we don't do anything about it. i'd be v willing to give anyone who thinks i'm wrong a demonstration of this frustration btw if they'd like to see how it will feel to be a bunch of new players trying out FF clanning.

2) it featured heavily match-influential random spawn luck. this is something we should really try our best to remove from all maps if we want FF to have a chance of being taken seriously as a competitive game. that should be obvious to anyone who's thought about it.

if the changes we've made cause other problems then ofc we'll have to rethink, but something needed to be done and this is an obvious first thing to try that i see no problems with yet.

-----

with regard to aardvark default sniper limit, i'll repeat the basic points again: it is server side; it is configurable by the server admin; it is an attempt to make the map more accessible and less frustrating to new players and focus public play on the objectives; it is _not_ the way it will be for ever if it turns out that the majority of ppl don't like it (it is a first attempt to see how it effects the map, as we need to do something while we're waiting for the sniper overhaul); it does not seem to have killed the map, as i've seen full servers with it on, so if you don't like it then that's fine but pls don't exagerate; if you don't like it (just as the default setting, cos remember server admins can change it), then explain why and then explain what you would like to see as the default and why.

-----

as a general point, when anyone tries to make positive changes to the game please at least give them a serious try for a few weeks first rather than basically saying all change is bad and it was better as it was before but not giving any actual reasons. there ARE hundreds of real issues with FF that we urgently need to get sorted if FF's going to be popular when we go onto steam (including a few CTF map tweaking issues such as this). for the first time i do now actually believe we CAN sort them all if we stay focused, but going around in circles redebating stuff (that's already been discussed, and the conclusions of which are what has been implemented) before you've even given it a proper go just causes a big waste of dev time trying to explain stuff again and again (yes, ofc i want the community to be onboard, so i try to explain, but that prevents time spent on other stuff, so if you want to help FF pls reserve judgement for when you've had a chance to properly assess changes and then give a worthwhile and _justified_ opinion on them). it's symptomatic of the close-minded attitude that's been slowing down FF's progress for a long time.

[xks]

I agree with the SD2 spawn change, it does make a lot of sense although it would also make a lot of sense to give us wider doors or better exits to the one spawn we can use. In addition to this can we have spawn protection inside like most other maps, it's annoying to have enemies come inside the spawn all the time killing whoever spawns. In addition to this can we have the old "grenades come in but don't explode" effect on the SD2 respawn as well, far too often I am spawning into a couple of MIRV's or Emp's going off inside the spawn. These changes are needed to help avoid the spawn becoming a place where it's very easy to pin the opposition down and the last few SD2 games I've played have ended up somewhat like that.

The other thing to consider is perhaps an internal lift/spawn walkway to get to the upper spawn without having to traverse the open ground of your base. This should still achieve the same balance that you are looking for but allow people multiple exits from the same spawn. It could be organised to take about the same amount of time to get to the upper spawn as if you went outside but it would at least be avoiding all the detpacks laid outside the spawn and the grenade spam.

As for the Aardvark sniper change, it's a difficult one to call. I had a game last night on there as a sniper, the opposition sniper wasn't particularly great, or at least I could predict where he would appear so he had no chance against me. This left me with a lot of free time to kill almost all of the offensive players coming out of the enemy base. My team ended up asking them if they were even bothering to attack. This is an example of what can happen if the one sniper slots are taken up by people of wildly differing skill.

[KubeDawg]

Does the lift currently make noise when it is going up/down? I think it should.

[caesium]

yeah, good idea to put something to completely stop enemy players and grens getting in the sd2 resups. also i don't remember if the lift makes a noise, but i agree that it should do. i'll try to find time to make sure these get done for next patch.

making the btm resup doors wider is tricky cos the door models are that size. they're pretty big scale already btw (stand a friend next to them and they're bigger than i realised), but if it turns out we really do need to make them wider then ofc we'll have to find a way. so yeah, let's see how that one goes.

[R22B]

Putting a hard cap on the sniper count on Aardvark in my opinion is just the mapper taking an easy way out. Yes, I got pissed when there are a ton of snipers and I can’t even walk out my door. However, that is the design flaw in Aardvark – the mile long yard is nothing but a DM area.

In reality, there should be an alternative way to get to the enemy base BESIDES the yard. The mile long choke point is the killer and is sniper heaven.

[Hammock]

Just take the door out, slap in a team colored killing field infront of it (that looks like the one on the front door of plasma, where you can't see through it from either side), and impliment the suggestion of making it so nothing can damage people inside of it and have no buildable zone inside.

This stops enemies from running in, or spamming, you can make it a bit wider, and seriously sd2 is a popular map and you can quite often have full 11 man teams, the spawn point should not have a bottleneck of an opening and closing door, especially now that there's only 1 spawn.

[Ihmhi]

Well, we're seeing how it goes. Aardvark has actually been a bit more enjoyable for me lately.

I think the Sniper limit should at least be 2 or something, you know? Or maybe we need to think up a way with Lua to adjust the Sniper limit based on the number of players.

[R22B]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

Well, we're seeing how it goes. Aardvark has actually been a bit more enjoyable for me lately.

I think the Sniper limit should at least be 2 or something, you know? Or maybe we need to think up a way with Lua to adjust the Sniper limit based on the number of players.

I enjoy being able to cross the field - yes. The problem isnt the snipers - its the long open field in which the snipers do their business. Don't get me wrong, its great to conc/pipe jump across but IMO, there should be an alternative route going into the bathroom or something. Most maps have multiple ways for a reason.

Or at least shorten the yard or make more "obstacles" to block sniping.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Just take the door out, slap in a team colored killing field in front of it (that looks like the one on the front door of plasma, where you can't see through it from either side), and implement the suggestion of making it so nothing can damage people inside of it and have no buildable zone inside.

This stops enemies from running in, or spamming, you can make it a bit wider, and seriously sd2 is a popular map and you can quite often have full 11 man teams, the spawn point should not have a bottleneck of an opening and closing door, especially now that there's only 1 spawn.

I completely agree. Less doors, more fields that disintegrate enemy shit as it passes through. I also think it'd add to the aesthetic value of the map.

Also, the outside of SD2 needs some sort of change to make it sexier. Right now, it looks plain and ugly.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

Well, we're seeing how it goes. Aardvark has actually been a bit more enjoyable for me lately.

I think the Sniper limit should at least be 2 or something, you know? Or maybe we need to think up a way with Lua to adjust the Sniper limit based on the number of players.

That's a fantastic idea, I've thought about this before, but it sounded like it may have been too difficult to do.

[caesium]

Originally Posted by R22B

However, that is the design flaw in Aardvark – the mile long yard is nothing but a DM area.

that's not true. it plays a v important role in the balancing of effectiveness of all the classes on offence (by controlling their probability and duration of getting there). the problem basically is that this balancing effect is VERY different for players of different skill levels. it's rly v simple.

the solution is wait for the sniper overhaul. in the meantime, though, limits are worth experimenting with to address this difference.

and yeah, i suggested we give varying the limits with player numbers a go for the next patch, but nobody seemed keen on the idea. we can if ppl think it would be worth a try tho.

[R22B]

Originally Posted by caesium

that's not true. it plays a v important role in the balancing of effectiveness of all the classes on offence (by controlling their probability and duration of getting there). the problem basically is that this balancing effect is VERY different for players of different skill levels. it's rly v simple.

the solution is wait for the sniper overhaul. in the meantime, though, limits are worth experimenting with to address this difference.

and yeah, i suggested varying the limits with player numbers a go for the next patch, but nobody seemed keen on the idea. we can if ppl think it would be worth a try tho.

So your idea is wait until the game changes the class and not change the map to compensate?

Considering most people that play offense are either scout, medic, or demoman, they can all get there very quickly. Heck, I can only build a L1 SG before they come around again and take it out. It happens a lot.

The wait time between attacks - okay, I can see that since the bases are small and there isn't much travel once inside the base to get to the flag. However, there is still a large open area which snipers cover that is easily twice as long as the open area in 2fort.

I don't see why adding a secondary entry is a bad thing. I love Aardvark as much as the next guy and its a great map, but when you have an open field the length of a football field and no other way, you're going to have a DM area.

[betterschindt]

argh i want to try out new aardvark so bad to see if my theory is correct.

but been so busy at work and now its valentines day weekend so that means its girls get their fuckin way day so maybe mid week next week ill post my opinions based on game time