Sniper: Removal from CTF maps?

[dys]

I voted for the last option, but... I wouldn't be opposed to replacing the sniper with something that fits the rest of the game's theme a bit more. But it's hard for me to consider removing the sniper altogether. However, keeping him there "just because he's always been there" isn't a great argument. OTOH, sniper gets a lot of action in pubs, especially by newcomers, and there's nothing wrong with tantalizing newcomers.

TBH I'm a tad bit disappointed that an entirely new class wasn't introduced to the game.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by myersjr

Ill second this notion..

I disagree entirely with it. A sniper is not like a spy as a sniper is easily discerned. You'll never really know when a spy has stopped being run and the paranoia will continue on from round to round.

You know when a sniper stops sniping. Pretty much instantly.

Further, a sniper doesn't really do much. Getting kills doesn't mean much of anything. Wasting the enemies time and pushing them around means so much more. The only reason a defender should kill somebody is if:

1. The flag will be moved.

2. The rest of the defense is down.

Otherwise, simply bullying the offensive guy is a better strategy. Literally allowing the offense to DM you is a much better strategy than killing them right away about 90% of the time.

The point of the explosives aren't to kill the enemy, but to deny them entrance or to push them in a direction that benefits you. Now, a demo is used to kill people. However, things like grenades and rockets are pure push tools.

Further, the heavy reliance on high accuracy is what makes the class incredibly unreliable. This is why the engineer is used on almost every map. His accuracy, or rather, his SGs accuracy. There is also a reason why his SG has insane bullet push. I'll let you figure this out on your own, but I'll give you a hint. It has something to do with area denial.

In its current state, the sniper is redundant and useless. He brings nothing useful to the table. Great, he can kill people. So can 7 out of the 9 other classes. They can do it more efficiently to boot. So why on earth would I ever want to have a sniper around?

It's like this. I can either have a class that can kill people or I can have a class that can kill people and can have massive area denial, or medium area denial and perfect accuracy, or medium area denial and lots of hit points and armor, or medium area denial and a blocking tool. That's the entire issue.

It's nothing personal either. In BF2 I played as a sniper 90% of the time. I do the same in COD4. It's just that the sniper in TF games isn't effective. It's simply the nature of the game. The only way for him to be effective is to either completely revamp him or to completely revamp all the other classes.

This is really the only class that needs a complete revamp in order to be, at the very least, viable.

[Player]

Legshots are really useful and are far easier to get than a head shot. Quick shots to all offensive players legs will reduce their effectiveness (delay between shots needs to be reduced--a lot--to really consider this useful).

You bang on about the accuracy required, yet soldiers shotty people from across the yard, mid air and so on--rarely missing a shot (and causing a useful amount of damage (not relying on spread))--until they are up close where the rpg is at its most effective range.

Amongst experienced players, aiming isn't exactly the problem when it comes to the sniper rifle, it is its dynamics--the inability to fire in quick succession with a decent amount of damage--that truly effects the snipers position in this version of team fortress.

I say boost his uncharged shot strength; this will inherently reduce the charge time for a full strength shot, but will make uncharged shots more viable.

If I remember correctly, he was / is good in qtf and q3tf / etf.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Player

Amongst experienced players, aiming isn't exactly the problem

No, it is the problem. If you miss, you're sunk. If you're firing a round a second, or even a half-second, you missing means you've missed your chance. It's completely an aiming thing.

The speed of the game dictates a small margin of error. Things with an area of effect lessen the margin of error by large amounts. The simple fact that it is much easier to hit somebody with a rocket in a closed environment than it is to hit somebody in an open environment with a single round is reason enough to always use a soldier over a sniper.

An equally skilled soldier will kill more people, and waste more of the enemies time than an equally skilled sniper. This automatically makes the soldier a better choice 100% of the time.

I mean, even Paulbunyan didn't use sniper in clan matches. There is a reason for that.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...82591977329319

[dys]

Good posts, Credge.

[v3rtigo]

It's true that a soldier or similar class will be much more useful almost all of the time, but if you radiotag + legshot each incomming target, you will certainly have your role in a match. Problem is, that as a solly, you can pretty much block off an entire entrance while the sniper is limited in his abilities to stop enemy offence. Even if you could radiotag and legshot each target, you just won't be as useful for your team than if you were blowing up medics at a chokepoint.

If this can somehow be adressed, I'm sure the sniper will be a (more) viable choice.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

It's true that a soldier or similar class will be much more useful almost all of the time, but if you radiotag + legshot each incomming target, you will certainly have your role in a match. Problem is, that as a solly, you can pretty much block off an entire entrance while the sniper is limited in his abilities to stop enemy offence. Even if you could radiotag and legshot each target, you just won't be as useful for your team than if you were blowing up medics at a chokepoint.

If this can somehow be adressed, I'm sure the sniper will be a (more) viable choice.

That's pretty much it. Radiotagging doesn't really do all that much as communication is the biggest part of all defenses. I don't have to see him coming around plank to know I need to toss a nade in that direction when my team mate says "one plank". And, the majority of the time, a sniper on defense will play in the yard (or some spot where all enemies will come from) and generally won't be able to give very good calls as most maps split after the front door (plank and ramp on SD2 for example).

Even further, most bases are small and enclosed with very very few maps having large open bases. But, even then, snipers aren't a popular choice on maps like Congestus, even in pubs.

I would like to see the sniper useful inside bases, particularly long halls like the plank on SD2. I would really like to see the sniper used as a mobile alternative to the HW. He should be a defensive class that uses a quick mind and hand to dispatch foes.

The first thing he needs is a secondary grenade. After that, it wouldn't be so bad to give him a gadget or two like a motion detector that, after someone passes by it, they are radiotagged OR it lets the sniper know an enemy has passed by that point.

[SSCUJO]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

Im still not sure why we are having so much trouble with this. Some people seem to want to sniper to be viable in general league play. form what i've heard in this thread from players who play in leagues is that the only effective form of defense is explosions, genades and choke points. the only effective means of offence are concs, speed, and granades.

the sniper doesn't not excel in any of these catagories... changing something like the rate of fire, or amount of dmg will not address the issue. quite litterally you would have to take the 'sniper' out of the sniper class if you wanted to make this work.

of course almost everyone agrees that the 1.11 sniper had a large effect in Pubs and was a very worthy class in its own right. and did a great job supporting the team.

league players do not look for accuracy when defending they look for area of effect damage, it has the highest percentages. so unless your thinking of an exploding sniper bullet... lets jsut make the sniper useful in pubs again, and then we can work from there at what can be done.

Credge, a sniper in a clan style game isn't going to happen... the percentages jsut arn't there... i don't care what you do to it. clans and leagues will never except the sniper has viable

please please, for the love of god, lets try to fix the sniper in Pubs... Where its ACTUALLy PLAYED, before we start trancing about destroying the already delicate balance of the game.

the majority of snipers are fine with not being in most leagues. becasue most snipers were the most effective players on thier team in pubs.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

the majority of snipers are fine with not being in most leagues. becasue most snipers were the most effective players on thier team in pubs.

Define effective.

[SSCUJO]

ardvark example. if someone like me and Taco-Bell were playing on the same team as snipers the enemy had a 3% chance to make it into our base, the midfield was completely dominated. In Pubs, people don't run straight for the enemy base, they see an enemy in the midfeild and try to take him down or kill him, and while they try and do that, from a distance one of the two snipers would finish the job.

This not only stopped the enemy team from pushing out but gave our team total domination in the midfeild forcing the enemy team to stay in their base.

and just to prove its the snipers, on more than one occassion i have switched by myself or with a teammate sniper to the team that is being dominated, and within 3 or 4 respawns the entire midfield is cleared and the once crippled team was given a chance to come out to the midfeild and attack, soon after the cycle continued...

effective.

[myersjr]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

ardvark example. if someone like me and Taco-Bell were playing on the same team as snipers the enemy had a 3% chance to make it into our base, the midfield was completely dominated. In Pubs, people don't run straight for the enemy base, they see an enemy in the midfeild and try to take him down or kill him, and while they try and do that, from a distance one of the two snipers would finish the job.

This not only stopped the enemy team from pushing out but gave our team total domination in the midfeild forcing the enemy team to stay in their base.

and just to prove its the snipers, on more than one occassion i have switched by myself or with a teammate sniper to the team that is being dominated, and within 3 or 4 respawns the entire midfield is cleared and the once crippled team was given a chance to come out to the midfeild and attack, soon after the cycle continued...

effective.

This is what i was trying to allude to in some of my earlier posts..If the sniper is good enough, he can and will slow down the Offense enough so that the D doesnt have to work very hard at all..it just to give the offense something to think about. While they are thinking about it, the clock keeps ticking and they're losing valuable seconds. Meanwhile, the other teams o just capped at least twice..if you cant score cuz the sniper has taken out one of your o guys and the d solly took out the other..you cant win..game over..

[v3rtigo]

Rather than effective, the sniper is merely an annoying first/extra layer of defense. It's strength is in that it can hit target with pinpoint accuracy and high damage from great distances, as no other class can really do this. However, because he has to charge his shots, is easily killed and needs to be quite the marksman to hit concing scouts continually, a soldier with much more stopping power, less risk of missing (due to blast radius) and more hp/armor will be far more effective, provided he is in the right place at the right time(s).

The sniper just doesn't have what it takes to be a good choice in fast paced clanmatches. His vulnerability and inability to quickly and effectively do damage to and/or stall more than one foe just makes him too weak to go up against a team of concing medics and scouts, not even counting support classes. Sure, you can stall a few em, but you would do much better mowing them all down as a HW. Also, if there's one sniper on each team, it's just going to be a sniper battle, because that's just how the maps are built and guess what a real annoying sniper will most likely be countered with...

[dys]

You guys are talking about pubs vs competitive matches, two completely different things. You're all right in your respective arguements. Snipers won't ever be first choice in a match, however they have a great impact on the newbies that want to chase you around the yard all night in a pub. It's that simple and that's why people have different preferences for their chosen environment - pub or match.

[Jiggles]

Sure. But one of FF's goals has always been to allow all the classes to be effective both in pubs and in competitive play. I don't think it's impossible, though it will require some change.

[Circuitous]

THE SNIPER JUST DON'T WORK THAT GREAT IN CTF MAPS WITH A LIMITED PLAYER POOL (I.E. CLANSTYLE).

THE SNIPER WORKS BETTER IN LARGER, MORE OPEN MAPS AND SPECIAL GAMEMODES (AVD AND HUNTED RESPECTIVELY).

THAT IS HOW THIS IDEA GOT STARTED.

Jesus we're at like 10 pages and still the point is missed.

[myersjr]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

THE SNIPER JUST DON'T WORK THAT GREAT IN CTF MAPS WITH A LIMITED PLAYER POOL (I.E. CLANSTYLE).

THE SNIPER WORKS BETTER IN LARGER, MORE OPEN MAPS AND SPECIAL GAMEMODES (AVD AND HUNTED RESPECTIVELY).

THAT IS HOW THIS IDEA GOT STARTED.

Jesus we're at like 10 pages and still the point is missed.

No, we havent missed the point. We just discussed it until we're all numb(mentally) lol. The original point was to get peoples opinion on what if anything could be done with the sniper to improve it if thats even possible considering the context of the game and so forth. Some feel he's too weak..others feel he's too strong. To which i replied, "what kind of role should the sniper play??" Do you want him to be a killing monster, or do you want him to be something far less?? Noobies say he should be far less powerful, skilled players say he sucks. So, what to do?? I dare say that whatever he is used for should be dependant on the map that is playing..Am i too far off with that suggestion?? And i dont think that has anything to do with the Dev team. Im no expert on either pub or clanstyle matches but i think that the map and the rules in effect on the server contribute to whatever way that the sniper class is played. From the replies we got, we can say one thing, there is no one thing that can be done with the sniper. Everybody seems to agree that he needs some adjustment, but nobody can agree on how he should be fixed.

[Circuitous]

Any changes to him should make him a better Sniper.

If being a Sniper keeps him from seeing use in CTF clanplay, then that should be FINE. The existence of a Sniper, I feel, supercedes the need for all nine classes seeing use in clanplay. He opens up new gamemodes we couldn't have otherwise.

[myersjr]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Any changes to him should make him a better Sniper.

If being a Sniper keeps him from seeing use in CTF clanplay, then that should be FINE. The existence of a Sniper, I feel, supercedes the need for all nine classes seeing use in clanplay. He opens up new gamemodes we couldn't have otherwise.

Circ..the biggest problem with this is, no one can figure out what would make him a better sniper. Is it faster shot charge, is it more power on the sniperrifle?? Is it a larger hit box?? These are all suggestions that have been made. They all seem like good ideas, but know that if any one of them gets implemented, you're going to have someone crying. Can we agree on that?? I think we can..lol

[Circuitous]

Originally Posted by myersjr

if any one of them gets implemented, you're going to have someone crying.

Oh God do we know.

Too much of this thread has been trying to focus on making him leaguable, though.

[myersjr]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Oh God do we know.

Too much of this thread has been trying to focus on making him leaguable, though.

I have to be honest, i dont know jack about whether a class is leagueable or not..i just know that to alter him..we should have a good reason and know exactly what we want to do with him. Thats my point. I would think that changing him without a good plan as to which way the community would like to see him go prolly would be counterproductive. But, herein lies the problem. The community itself cant decide what would be best.