Joker's psychology colloquia part 3

[Private_Joker]

Why TF2 makes us sad

All devoted fans of Team Fortress and TFC have experienced unending sorrow through Fortress history; when Quake's source code was released, the hackers which brought the death of QWTF, and the subsequent fragmenting of Fortress fans into the multitude of TF remakes like
TFC (and NeoTF)
Unreal Fortress
Quake 3 Fortress
Enemy Territory Fortress

Here's the important bit: The Team Fortress player base has been too fragmented for a long time, and now FF, TF2, and Q4F are just the next generation of this fragementation. We here, players of Fortress Forever, want more than anything to play the same gameplay which we had in TF and TFC. We view TF2 (and VALVe's advertizing budget) as the biggest threat to that type of gameplay, and that's what makes us so angry.

TF2 sez "all ur player base are belong to us!"

But TF2 is not Team Fortress. TF2 is Counter-Fortress.

-Joker

[be_]

I liked it. It doesn't sound like complaining and gives support to a point.

Does the title mean there is a part 1 and 2, or is that a "joke?"

[Private_Joker]

To add a bit more to what I wrote, I'll defend the developers about how little they changed from TFC to FF:

I like to think of Hockey. How long has Hockey been around, with the same type of people loving to play it, and loving to watch it? Of course it's been tweaked and patched since it's conception (maybe in the 1800s? check Wikipedia,) but it's still the same game, and people still love it.

While it's true that people crave change in many different things (like music,)
games in general (be they PC games or athletic games) merit an exception from change, just by their nature (in regard to psychology.) Just like Hockey, Fortress has no reason to change; it's a great game already.

The developers of Fortress Forever took the conservative approach to remaking a great game, and I respect them for that.

-Joker

[Skanky Butterpuss]

i like you Joker.


that said, fuck the new "1 OT and then Shootout" rule (even though the wings beat the ducks in the shootout 2 or 3 nights ago)

Originally Posted by Private_Joker

While it's true that people crave change in many different things (like music,)games in general (be they PC games or athletic games) merit an exception from change, just by their nature (in regard to psychology.) Just like Hockey, Fortress has no reason to change; it's a great game already.

I think the thousands of players opting for TF2, versus a couple of hundred playing TFC/FF, might disprove your point there.

[Private_Joker]

Originally Posted by Mike.Gayner

I think the thousands of players opting for TF2, versus a couple of hundred playing TFC/FF, might disprove your point there.

You're almost right, but you forget that TF2 is supported by VALVe's advertizing. TF2 will be released for PC, Xbox 360, and Playstation 3, The Orange Box has a television commercial, and every google.com search for "Team Fortress" brings up "Team Fortress 2."

Fortress Forever has...word of mouth.

-Joker

[be_]

Death metal vs radio rock?

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by be_

Death metal vs radio rock?

If that is the case then FF will eventually be huge. Radio rock leads to death metal... after a while. Except, in our case, it's like smooth jazz vs. death metal. One gets played on the radio, and the latter has no association with fans of the former. Therefore, there is little chance of converting a smooth jazz fan into a death metal fan.

Unfortunate circumstances.

The solution? I'll say it again: FF needs its training mode. Makes it easier to become a death metal fan.

I need to stop talking in metaphors.

Originally Posted by Private_Joker

You're almost right, but you forget that TF2 is supported by VALVe's advertizing. TF2 will be released for PC, Xbox 360, and Playstation 3, The Orange Box has a television commercial, and every google.com search for "Team Fortress" brings up "Team Fortress 2."

Fortress Forever has...word of mouth.

-Joker

TFC, along with other titles which have resisted change, has been hemorrhaging players for years. Your assertion that games need not change is just plain false, and there's simply no evidence to support you on it.

[caesium]

just LOL ... sometime's I wonder if Mike.Gayner is kidding or if he's for real and really that ignorant I cba to spend time here to spell it out to you cos no doubt you'll ignore me like you have many others, but if you'd like a real discussion sometime find me on irc and I'd be glad to.

[Private_Joker]

Originally Posted by Mike.Gayner

TFC, along with other titles which have resisted change, has been hemorrhaging players for years. Your assertion that games need not change is just plain false, and there's simply no evidence to support you on it.

Pay attention, in my first post I attributed the slow decline of Fortress players to the fragmenting of its player base. TFC lost players because of the unfortunate trend of conc maps, and the hordes of bots which people grew tired of, but most importantly it had competitors, namely
Unreal Fortress
Quake 3 Fortress
Enemy Territory Fortress

Not to mention the not-quite-dead QWTF and its own multitude of mods.

Fortress is a great game. It's simple, fast-paced, team-oriented, and easy to learn (this is why I compared it to Hockey, also I'm from Maine ) It's one of the best multiplayer games out there and it deserves to be as much and more popular than any other game.
This isn't just my opinion, it makes alot of rational sense.

-Joker

[Industrial]

I disagree with the concmaps (as well as funmaps etc). They are a meta game so different from the original they even spawn a NEW player base of people who have no interest in killing other people. I have met players who have never played tfc as a CTF game. I don't believe this kills a game's community, as you can play both (one to do something fun and different once in a while).

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by Industrial

I disagree with the concmaps (as well as funmaps etc). They are a meta game so different from the original they even spawn a NEW player base of people who have no interest in killing other people. I have met players who have never played tfc as a CTF game. I don't believe this kills a game's community, as you can play both (one to do something fun and different once in a while).

That is the skills community. I think they are a very important aspect of TFC. I mean, if anything, they are excellent training for learning to conc in CTF and stuff.

Every O Med I ever knew in TFC also ran concmaps like some sort of addiction. They were always trying to better themselves, always trying to improve their skill.

I do not view this (somewhat) seperate community in TFC/FF as a weakness. Rather, it is a strength!

Let us compare TF2's gameplay modes to FF's gameplay modes (past and very near future I hope):

TF2:
-Capture The Flag
-Command Point

FF:
-Capture The Flag
-Shutdown
-Command Point
-Invade And Defend
-Dustbowl/Palermo style play (I forget what this is called)
-Skills maps (concmaps etc.)
-Hunted maps
-Deathmatch maps
-Escape maps (let's see these in the near future!)
-Sports/push maps (push, murderball, ukfootie, pigskin, minigolf, etc.)
-Fun maps (old favorites like heavymachinery2, new classics like duckhunt)
-King of the Hill

And lest we forget, entirely new gameplay styles can be created thanks to LUA.

FF literally has 5 times the gameplay that TF2 has. Yes, it does divide the community sometimes, but it is also one of our greatest strenghts.

[Private_Joker]

That's a good point, but also consider that as conc'ing became so popular it overtook a significant amount of servers which were formerly standard gameplay (CTF, assault, et cetera.) A lot of casual players were discouraged when they couldn't find a server which wasn't on a concmap, wasn't empty, and wasn't overrun by bots.
I claim this because I've known people to say that explicitly; a friend of mine said "I used to play TFC all the time, but then it just became all those stupid conc maps so I didn't really play anymore." That's one example but I also look at how TFC is now, with lots of fun/skill servers and hundreds of servers filled with FoxBot, and I find it easy to imagine that that's how it happened.

Fortress Forever needs a lot of people to see it for its quality gameplay, which is outside its fancy graphics, physics, and features. If Fortress can gain a large community of people who appreciate the game for its essence, then Fortress will be one of the greatest games of our generation.

The war is never over!
FORTRESS FOREVER!

-Joker

[Dr.Uudge]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

That is the skills community. I think they are a very important aspect of TFC. I mean, if anything, they are excellent training for learning to conc in CTF and stuff.

Every O Med I ever knew in TFC also ran concmaps like some sort of addiction. They were always trying to better themselves, always trying to improve their skill.

I do not view this (somewhat) seperate community in TFC/FF as a weakness. Rather, it is a strength!

Let us compare TF2's gameplay modes to FF's gameplay modes (past and very near future I hope):

TF2:
-Capture The Flag
-Command Point

FF:
-Capture The Flag
-Shutdown
-Command Point
-Invade And Defend
-Dustbowl/Palermo style play (I forget what this is called)
-Skills maps (concmaps etc.)
-Hunted maps
-Deathmatch maps
-Escape maps (let's see these in the near future!)
-Sports/push maps (push, murderball, ukfootie, pigskin, minigolf, etc.)
-Fun maps (old favorites like heavymachinery2, new classics like duckhunt)
-King of the Hill

And lest we forget, entirely new gameplay styles can be created thanks to LUA.

FF literally has 5 times the gameplay that TF2 has. Yes, it does divide the community sometimes, but it is also one of our greatest strenghts.

And plus, often times, custom maps tend to blend some of the different gameplay aspects, such as betrayed hunted map where the prez was a demo, and could show off the pipe-bhop skills. Or like badlands where the conc skill and CTF mode come together like ham and grilled cheese sammich.

It is called Team Fortress 2, not Team Fortress: Source. The 2 implies it's a sequel and is different to some degree. Fortress Forever is the Team Fortress: Source, which means everything is pretty much the same with a graphics boost and some gameplay tweaks. They are different games, get used to it. Which one is going to appeal to the larger audience? Team Fortress 2 obviously. Fortress Forever is for the conservatives who still like the classic arcade gameplay from 10 years ago. I'm not dissing Fortress Forever, but I'm sick of people inferring that Valve ruined Team Fortress 2, because it's obvious just from the BETA test that it is a success.

[SoBe Green]

Yea what Caseman said.

I'm not sure if you are trying to justify your need to "rebel" against something or if you are just angry TF2 has more players. Its safe to say almost all of the TF2 players are old TF players of some kind. All you are doing is insulting the "TF community" you are claiming should be united. Sure there are players playing TF2 to see what all the hype is about but most I'd say have played a TF game of some kind in the past and want something new. Not to mention FF is far from dead. Only one release and already we have people that claim Valve has destroyed this game or is making it worse. I don't feel TF2 has much of an effect on FF at all. I own both and play both almost nonstop. I think the decline of players in FF is from bugs that will be fixed in the next update. So keep your diaper on don't cry yet.

But Sobe, if we're to believe the OP, there's no way TF2 could be populated with ex-TF players, because players dont like change, and that's why QWTF is still such a hugely popular game. Oh, wait... yes, that's right...'fragmentation', whatever he's trying to get at there.

Let me sum up Joker's position: People dont like change, they just like to player other games (wtf?!), so it's because there was competition (eg, change?!) that TFC has failed.

[Dr.Uudge]

Originally Posted by Caseman

It is called Team Fortress 2, not Team Fortress: Source. The 2 implies it's a sequel and is different to some degree. Fortress Forever is the Team Fortress: Source, which means everything is pretty much the same with a graphics boost and some gameplay tweaks. They are different games, get used to it. Which one is going to appeal to the larger audience? Team Fortress 2 obviously. Fortress Forever is for the conservatives who still like the classic arcade gameplay from 10 years ago. I'm not dissing Fortress Forever, but I'm sick of people inferring that Valve ruined Team Fortress 2, because it's obvious just from the BETA test that it is a success.

They can call it whatever they want.

However, the fact that many FF maps will be impossible to be ported to TF2 is a very good indicator that TF2 is broke. Let's see TF2 try to port something like badlands or rock2 and still retain the CTF concept.

Plus, if you're "sick of people inferring that valve ruined Team fortress 2" you can hop over to the steam forums and get a buttload of "Why I AM playing TF2" type comments daily, instead of squatting over the FF forums with people who have played TF2 and consider it broken.

Beta test is BS. Give people 1~2 year after the official release, so that if bugs and tweaks are not corrected, there will be no "it's in beta" excuse. Give people time to get bored of it, since there will be no improving of skills such as pipe-bhop, conc skills, rocket-bhop, gren-rocket-gren attack combo, nailgun-gren combo for sentires, rocket-nail gren-gren jumping, etc., and then the stats will more accurately reflect TF2's popularity.

TF people are not looking for "old stuff" like you TF2 fanboys are trying to have people believe. That's why there's been suggestions such as scouts wall-running/no fall dmg, spy death msg changes, acceleration for rockets, etc.

Joker's point is not that people don't want change. His point, like many who have played TF2 and found it lacking, are dissapointed in the direction value took, because it does not accurately reflect the core concepts of what TF gaming is about. Rather, they take away from it, and claim it as TF, which further fragments the already-fragmented community. That is where the dissapointment lies.

[Private_Joker]

Originally Posted by Dr.Uudge

Joker's point is not that people don't want change. His point...dissapointed in the direction value took, because it does not accurately reflect the core concepts of what TF gaming is about. Rather, they take away from it, and claim it as TF, which further fragments the already-fragmented community. That is where the dissapointment lies.

Yes Druudge, you're exactly right.
Caseman, you're right too. TF2 is a sequel, and sequels are defined by being different. I guess you could say: I'm not disappointed how VALVe made a sequel, but I'm disappointed that VALVe made a sequel.

Optimally, I prefer that VALVe should have done what FF devs did; if VALVe had supported the original gameplay of Fortress by only updating it to the Source engine (as FF has done,) then I believe that Fortress would be one of the greatest games of our generation. Instead, they churned out another title and sold it like hell. The consequence is a multitude of unpopular games (Fortress, as represented by TF, TFC, ETF, et cetera) of very good quality, and one very popular game of moderate quality, TF2.

Sobe, yes I'm justifying this community's rebellion against TF2. I'm a student of psychology, and I've found this case an interesting one so I've decided to discuss it as graciously as I can. I don't appreciate you telling me to stop crying.

Gayner, I'm sick of your blathering. Show some respect and join the discussion like an intelligent person, or stop wasting my thread.

The war is never over.

-Joker