The rant about classes thread!

[Tally]

Just a thread where you can rant about classes. I posted this mainly because I don't see a whole lot of interesting happening on these forums. I'll start off.

The medic. I have a problem with most people who play medic. They don't heal you when you're at 8 HP and standing right in front of them.

People have forgotten (or just don't care) what a medic is all about: The heals.

The flagrunner part was just picked up because people figured, "Hey, he's the second fastest class. He's got concs. LET'S GO GET THE FLAG!"

After all, why would they be called the medic without healing?

[Everything]

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[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by Tally

After all, why would they be called the medic without healing?

I've been trying to push to make the medic more "heal-y", but the general consensus among the devs and beta testers is that he's so damned fast he just blazes by you anyway. The tossable medkits were sort of a compromise to that effect.

Honestly, I just think we should split the medic into two classes - one more support and Medic-y like TF2 (but not as useless in battle), and one that acts like the current Medic's "Heavy Scout" role.

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Medic is more of a combat medic than a medic medic. That's why it said Combat Medic as the name in TFC. At least, I think it did.

[AaronJer]

That's just dumb. The medic has ALWAYS been a combat/capping class. Just because they can heal doesn't mean they're supposed to. Especially not in FF. An engineer could follow you around all day throwing supplies at you, but that would be just as stupid. You can heal yourself with supply bags and dying means almost nothing anyway. Why would they bother healing you if you could just run back to where you were when you died in like 5 seconds?

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

I hate people who play sniper all the time.

[Iggy]

Because a healthy O player in the enemy base NOW is different than an injured(or repeatedly sniped) player in the enemy base 5 minutes from NOW.

It isn't the CLASS that has a problem.... it's the people playing the class. I have(and will continue to) call players BY NAME before they run into a hazardous situation(when I am playing as a medic) so that I can beef their health up. Chances are, even if they die, they clear out the D so I can get out with the flag. In TFC, I have played the reverse role, and been the beefed up distraction so a faster team mate can get the flag out.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. PLAY FOR YOUR TEAM! Even in a pub. Even if no one else is... lead by example! Promote teamwork! It will spread like infections used to!

[squeek.]

If you've ever played as the hunted or as a medic on hunted, you must know that medics CAN heal and can do it VERY well. If you don't know that, you need to learn that it is true. A medic makes the difference between a dead civ and an escaped civ everytime a spy gets too close.

[Credge]

The issue with the medic revolves mainly on map. Some maps the scout simply can't be used effectively on and medics are required while others the medic isn't even needed.* You can say it balances out, but that's like saying that the pyro could be used on some maps. The point should be that all classes should be viable on >most< maps. I don't think there's anything you could add or change to alter the current classes without making one class incredibly overpowered over the other.

Maps need to be made with the classes in mind. Every defensive class needs to have a position which he can really do a lot of damage and all offensive classes need a route which uses his abilities to their fullest**. The new dropdown is a great example of this (back entrance for spy, bottom path for medic, top for scout) as is plasma.

I dunno. I think the biggest problem with most classes being OP or UP deals entirely with the maps that get played and made. They are either super-tight and focused on DM or super-open and focused entirely on concing. There are very few maps with instances and effective uses of both.

* This does not mean that the scout is better, it's just that the medic isn't needed. You'll often find people switching to medics when a defense is better than what scouts bring. You'll probably also notice that the team that brings medics starts to cap again. This ties in with maps more than the skill of the players playing.

** Personally, I think all offensive classes need a unique movement tool or ability. The pyro and spy have them (if you call the pyro an offensive class... maps need to be made with yards that don't have random crap scattered around so the pyro can backwards flame-bhop appropriately) but the scout and medic do not, effectively making them the same class with a different flavoring. In previous TF games it's been O.K. as the scout had a true speed advantage while the medic had the superior firepower, however, I don't see the scout as having the same level of advantage in FF though.

I think the game is balanced pretty decently... just some minor changes to the classes and better maps need to be made. If I had the time I'd start working on some maps but I've been a bit busy lately learning how to make videos... and now I'm playing WAR. I think once I finish this video I've been working on I'll have the time to map. But, until then, please map makers, think of the classes while you think of designs.

[Bnet505]

I second the notion to make the medic more heal-y. I don't care whether it was in TFC or not, its a good design decision to make the medic more fit his purpose. Give some of the better offense power to the scout but make the medic an instant "That guy has to be healing people" rather than a conditional "pro medics heal civs in hunted only, otherwise medic is a scout" type of medic.

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Originally Posted by Bnet505

his purpose

Originally Posted by Agent Buckshot Moose

Medic is more of a combat medic than a medic medic.

Behold: the medic's purpose.

[Iggy]

^^^ You know it's not subtle, if you have to use a highlighter.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Bnet505

I second the notion to make the medic more heal-y. I don't care whether it was in TFC or not, its a good design decision to make the medic more fit his purpose. Give some of the better offense power to the scout but make the medic an instant "That guy has to be healing people" rather than a conditional "pro medics heal civs in hunted only, otherwise medic is a scout" type of medic.

Make a gametype where the medic needs to be more heal-y and he will fill that role without any class changes. Otherwise, making him overall more heal-y will just make him useless in 90% of the current gametypes. That's my take on it.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Make a gametype where the medic needs to be more heal-y and he will fill that role without any class changes. Otherwise, making him overall more heal-y will just make him useless in 90% of the current gametypes. That's my take on it.

Yeah, that sums it up pretty squarely. The instant respawn nature of the game means that any healing he does really has no meaning, especially when you're right back in the action in under 10 seconds.

Though, if the medic were to be split in to two classes, I think the best thing to do would be to combine the sniper and medic (sniper weaponry, medic heal packs and medikit... remove the disease and concs) and then give the weaponry and grenades of the medic to a new class while also giving this new class a unique weapon/ability that made him the appropriate choice for maps like 2fort where a scouts finesse is of no use.

But that doesn't even sound very good.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Agent Buckshot Moose

Medic is more of a combat medic than a medic medic

I see people using this term incorrectly a lot. Guys, here's what this means (the normal definition):

-A medic is someone is who tends to wounded on or near battlefield conditions. They may not even be fighters, the Peace Corps is like this.

-A combat medic is someone trained in medicine who is also a soldier, his main asset is that he can tend to the wounded, which is his first priority. He's generally going to be more to the back of a fight because his ability

-A person with medical supplies and training who ignores his team and runs ahead is just a jackass.

So if you wanted to say that the medic is acting like a point man instead of a medic, that would make sense. Saying a medic is more of a combat medic doesn't make sense, because if he's not healing anyone, there's nothing about him that's a medic, a combat one or not.

Originally Posted by squeek.

Make a gametype where the medic needs to be more heal-y and he will fill that role without any class changes.

In AvD he could keep both offense and defense in play longer, which can be crucial in some situations. Besides, you don't have to change the gameplay around the medic, you can change his healing capacity. This has already been brought up before in another thread. I mentioned the possibility for the medic being able to enable teammates to get a vampiric effect where they can get a fraction of health back after so much damage. This would fit right in with FF gameplay and make him valuable as a healer again, but I didn't see a lot of responses to the idea.

Originally Posted by squeek.

If you've ever played as the hunted or as a medic on hunted, you must know that medics CAN heal and can do it VERY well.

That's because the hunted is moving cautiously and is depending on you for protection. In other gameplay types his healing sucks because of his hit detection and because packs lag behind you when running. This has already been discussed before.

[Mr. Happy]

I've said ti before and I'll say it again

INVINCIBLE SENTRY GUN IS INVINCIBLE!!!


SG shouldn't replace a player, but add to defense. In FF sentry counts as four players LOL!?

ya

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

I've said ti before and I'll say it again

INVINCIBLE SENTRY GUN IS INVINCIBLE!!!


SG shouldn't replace a player, but add to defense. In FF sentry counts as four players LOL!?

ya

Um... have you played 2.1 mister?

[GeoKill----->]

So some think the sg weak, others think is too strong... hmmm Engy is pefect then

[Paft]

Tally, this is pubs for you. No matter how important playing as a team is, it's still every man for himself on most pubs.

[Doctor Zyo]

I usually just hide behind Teammates and heal when I'm a Medic. And this is close to my main routine when I play medic unless someone is specific that I go on Offense with Infection Whoring and Flag Rushing.