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disable trimping when ducked Issue Tools
issueid=144 03-25-2009 11:54 AM
disable trimping when ducked

pls can we implement a way to choose whether or not you do a trimp (rather than a normal jump/bhop). i've been wanting this for a long time, as the one thing about ff movement that rly annoys me is when you're bhopping along or do a strafe jump and then suddenly pop fcking miles up into the air when you really didn't want to just because the trimp code gets activated accidentally. the result is it's often better to intentionally bhop slowly or just run on the ground when you're on uneven ground, which blows.

you may think we should just raise the speed required to trimp, but i don't think that's the right way go at all, cos firstly that should be used to balance the act of trimping itself (and intentional trimping [i.e. when you actually want to use it] is a fun feature that ppl seem to like and balances pretty well atm), and secondly however fast you make the speed required it doesn't actually solve the problem, just makes it happen less often.

so, my suggestion is v simple: completely disable trimping when ducked. gives full control to the player, v simple to use control wise, makes reasonable sense to explain/remember, doesn't change intentional trimping at all (which can still be balanced completely separately ofc) so it doesn't make learning/using intentional trimping any harder or change its effectiveness/balance at all. also should be v easy to code :)

-----

edit: i should have clarified that by trimping i mean just regular trimping (what ppl sometimes call "upwards"/"forwards" trimping - i.e. when going up a slope). i am not proposing any change to "downwards"/"reverse" trimping (i.e. when you gain speed by bhopping down a slope), nor any change to "double-jumping".

if you do not properly understand these techniques or wtf i'm on about (you think there is no problem atm) then don't worry, the change i'm proposing will probably make absolutely no difference to the way you use FF movement. if the forum voting feature is going to be useful then please do not vote either way on something you don't fully understand.
This issue is closed. No more replies may be made.
Issue Details
Issue Type Feature
Project Fortress Forever
Category General Game
Status Suggested
Priority 5 - Medium
Suggested Version 2.3
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 4
Votes against this feature 8
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

03-25-2009 08:09 PM
Pub Allstar!
 
Disagree.
03-25-2009 08:48 PM
Nade Whore
 
If this were implemented, it needs to be an option, because most of my trimping is while ducked.
03-25-2009 10:28 PM
Community Member
 
hmm Same, you gain more of a trimp in some ramps/platforms by ducking. There's a really sweet one on Well and cornfield that I like to use
03-26-2009 01:30 AM
Pub Allstar!
 
I would probably say that this "unintentional trimping" is on the player, not the system. You can cruise right over most uneven ground by ducking/not ducking in the right areas.
03-26-2009 02:24 AM
Community Member
 
Yeah pretty much, and if you do trimp, you can always down trimp to gain back that speed
03-26-2009 08:34 AM
zE zE is offline
Pew pew ze beams
 
i kinda see caesium point, in some maps while bhping like in arrdvark yard / medieval etc, u some times hit accidentally low edges and u are trowned in the air. Problem is that jumping crouching is also used to trimp stuff like prop cars, high walls etc
03-26-2009 10:59 AM
 
i think some of you have misunderstood what i'm saying or how ff movement works. i'll try to explain, but i think i'm onto a losing battle of the rofls :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
If this were implemented, it needs to be an option, because most of my trimping is while ducked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoKill----->
hmm Same, you gain more of a trimp in some ramps/platforms by ducking. There's a really sweet one on Well and cornfield that I like to use
it doesn't change the trimps you can do at all. firstly, the vast majority of useful trimps don't need you to duck beforehand to get into position, so they don't change in any way. secondly, to do a trimp that you do need to duck beforehand you would just let go of duck when you want to lower your legs down and do the trimp... simple, and anyone who actually cares about and uses trimps that require a duck will have mastered the use of mixing up ducking while bhopping long ago so it would be v natural. i think this is greatly favourable to introducing any other btns into the mix as other ppl have suggested previously. oh, and don't confuse trimping with double-jumping (i have a feeling you might be).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork
I would probably say that this "unintentional trimping" is on the player, not the system. You can cruise right over most uneven ground by ducking/not ducking in the right areas.
i consider myself good at scout movement, and i strongly disagree. if you bhop fairly slowly then yes i agree it's never a serious problem (i.e. yes, it is within the player's control to prevent unintentional trimping to a satisfactory degree). however, if you bhop v fast then in many places there's nothing you can do to prevent a high risk of unintentional trimps except intentionally slowing your bhop down like i said before (hence why i explained the alternative approach of raising the speed cap, which is how ff "solves" this problem atm).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoKill----->
Yeah pretty much, and if you do trimp, you can always down trimp to gain back that speed
that's not the point at all. if you accidentally trimp while bhopping v fast then you fly a long way up into the air (sometimes even up to the skybox rofl) and lose lots of your forwards speed during that time. sure, often you can land it on a downwards slope to regain some speed, but that's not the issue at all (i can get max speed from a single strafe jump). it's the time wasted popping up miles into the air while only moving forwards slowly that is the penalty/problem.
03-26-2009 02:32 PM
 
The problem here for me is I no longer have an accurate clue on what caesium is talking about.

Originally I understood trimping as going down inclines, not quite sliding but sort skipping down them. But then zE came out with his "trimp" maps which are essentially all double jumping stuff. So I've basically come to know "trimping" as double jumping.

If caesiums suggestion is for the first definition of trimping, where pressing duck lets you "slide down a ramp" so to speak. Then yes I'm all for it. Since it's frustrating as hell to say go down Aardvark's main ramp and hit the jump button to continue your movement (like most bhoppers do), and have yourself fly straight up and hit the ceiling.

If his suggestion refers to "double jumping" where holding duck does not allow a double jump then I'm against it.
03-26-2009 03:05 PM
 
edited original post to clarify. if i get time i might do a post explaining trimping, downwards-trimping, and double-jumping. basically tho, if you don't know what's what or what i'm on about then don't worry, what i'm proposing is unlikely to change the way you use FF movement at all.
03-26-2009 03:48 PM
Who the fuck is this guy?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
If this were implemented, it needs to be an option, because most of my trimping is while ducked.
So either we'd have a cl_notrimponduck 1 or a seperate +notrimp/-notrimp command people could bind to their duck key.
03-26-2009 05:21 PM
zE zE is offline
Pew pew ze beams
 
meh now im confused too, whats the diference between trimping and double jump..

blame this video tbh
Fortress Forever - Tutorial 2 - Trimping
03-26-2009 08:13 PM
Pub Allstar!
 
After rereading the OP, and the accompanying edit, I still stick by my original reply.

If you're convinced that my post still seems ignorant, then please post a clip showing this feature in action, so that we can intelligently discuss said feature.

I am still of the opinion, that the majority of these instances can be avoided with air-control or a smaller double-jump, prior to the slope which is giving you issues.

Any other instances would fall into the category of poor map design, places where you have no choice but to double-jump, but having no other purpose.

It seems to me like a lesson learned from the player's and mapper's points of view. Lodge a complaint with the mapper, and the map can be reworked to address your concern if they feel the same. Also, future mappers will be aware to avoid this.

I see no need in implementing a constant feature to correct an issue that sometimes happens on some maps, and when it does, does not disrupt the game, nor causes any unnecessary grief to anyone other than the player who had inadvertently zigged when he meant to zag.
03-26-2009 11:11 PM
get off my lawn
 
caesium built ff_aardvark, he is the mapper.

I do agree with the idea of a way to selectively disable trimping, for instance accidental hangtime trying to bhop up the spiral on 2fort has gotten me killed more times than I'd like.

but I'm not sure tacking this on to crouch is the best way to accomplish it. Easy to implement, sure, but there are some situations where crouching into a trimp/doublejump is helpful if not necessary.
03-27-2009 10:59 AM
 
hawk_eye: the problem with that idea is that it introduces complexity and another barrier for new/low-skilled players, which is the opposite direction we need to be moving in. not being able to move the way you see an experienced player move just because the experienced player has some weird jump btn script that you don't know about (or because you don't know about cl_notrimponduck) sucks. alternatively, if you meant have +/-notrimp as a new btn bound in the default cfg then i think this is unnecassarily complicated and once again is another barrier for new players. duck is a key that players already have to learn to master to get good at FF movement, so using that to decide whether or not to trimp (and which will not change what moves are possible) seems to be by far the best option imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishBurger
I do agree with the idea of a way to selectively disable trimping, for instance accidental hangtime trying to bhop up the spiral on 2fort has gotten me killed more times than I'd like.

but I'm not sure tacking this on to crouch is the best way to accomplish it. Easy to implement, sure, but there are some situations where crouching into a trimp/doublejump is helpful if not necessary.
i'll say again: double-jumping while ducked wouldn't change; trimps that require you to duck beforehand would all still be possible (and hopefully intuitive if you're accomplished enough at using FF movement to acutally use and care about such trimps).

ze: mb this is what you meant by that comment, but if that's linking to acid's video tutorials (i can't tell cos youtube is blocked here at work) then the namings and explainations aren't right for these techniques. same goes for all others i've seen (it's not helped by the fact that techniques are often used together and then labelled as just one) - afaik there is so far no tutorial that correctly explains the techniques and how they work (or even just how to use them really well). you could argue it's not all that important as the vast majority of players will probably never even notice, but imo it is important cos it's only when you really understand them that you can predict and fully exploit them accurately and creatively on the fly which is what it's all about, so explaining everything correctly from the ground up is so important imo.

[have to split the post cos it's too big for work firewall...]
03-27-2009 11:00 AM
 
[split post continues...]

mono: i disagree with and have already (i think) given responses for all the points in your last post except the question "what actually is trimping, reverse-trimping, and double-jumping?"... i rly want to make an FF movement video tutorial sometime, cos once ppl really understand stuff they quickly learn to use it much btr and enjoy learning/using it much more. problem is i've got so many more immediate things on my todo list, and when i get home from work i haven't had the energy to do as much on them as i want let alone start a tutorial project yet. i think we've got some official video tutorials planned (for before steam release), so i'll speak to squeek about what's going on there. i'm working on a new map concept atm, but i haven't got that far so i could just drop that to make some time.

in the meantime, here's a really [over-]simplified functional description of each:

1) trimp: jump when you are ramp-sliding on, or would be about to ramp-slide on if you didn't jump, an upwards slope, and you gain vertical speed (by an amount proportional to your horizontal speed beforehand) and pop up into the air losing some horizontal speed.

2) downards/reverse-trimp: jump on a downwards slope and you gain horizontal speed (by an amount proportional to your vertical speed beforehand).

3) double-jump: jump within a certain time of your previous jump and you do an extra big jump.
03-27-2009 08:49 PM
Pub Allstar!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by caesium
[split post continues...]

mono: i disagree with and have already (i think) given responses for all the points in your last post except the question "what actually is trimping, reverse-trimping, and double-jumping?"... i rly want to make an FF movement video tutorial sometime, cos once ppl really understand stuff they quickly learn to use it much btr and enjoy learning/using it much more. problem is i've got so many more immediate things on my todo list, and when i get home from work i haven't had the energy to do as much on them as i want let alone start a tutorial project yet. i think we've got some official video tutorials planned (for before steam release), so i'll speak to squeek about what's going on there. i'm working on a new map concept atm, but i haven't got that far so i could just drop that to make some time.

in the meantime, here's a really [over-]simplified functional description of each:

1) trimp: jump when you are ramp-sliding on, or would be about to ramp-slide on if you didn't jump, an upwards slope, and you gain vertical speed (by an amount proportional to your horizontal speed beforehand) and pop up into the air losing some horizontal speed.

2) downards/reverse-trimp: jump on a downwards slope and you gain horizontal speed (by an amount proportional to your vertical speed beforehand).

3) double-jump: jump within a certain time of your previous jump and you do an extra big jump.

thank you for your reply, with that, and some additional research I now understand that a "trimp" is a ramp-jump (I really think we should adopt the original terminology, as it is more precise, and has precedence over FF by several years.)

After becoming educated on the subject, I still disagree, seeing it as a problem with some places in some maps some times, I don't support a constant feature to eliminate a sporadic issue that we have identified the cause.

And personally, this change would affect me greatly, as I hold crouch while I'm bunny hopping to gain the extra time before I hit the ground for aircontrol. I only release crouch when I need to walk/run, or to perform a double-jump that I would have normally crouch-jumped over.

The default key for duck is ctrl, and IMO, to require +duck, +jump, -jump, -duck, +jump for ramp-jumps would just make things more complicated for people trying to learn FF movement, not to mention lesson the fun factor by requiring more repetitive motion, which could leave players physically sore afterwards.
03-29-2009 02:02 AM
QUAD ROCKET
 
Trimping is fine how it is. Learn the movement properly and you won't randomly go flying where you don't want to go.
03-29-2009 05:11 PM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlstriker
Trimping is fine how it is. Learn the movement properly and you won't randomly go flying where you don't want to go.
vouch.
03-29-2009 07:42 PM
Gets tickled by FF
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlstriker
Trimping is fine how it is. Learn the movement properly and you won't randomly go flying where you don't want to go.
my god - I will hate you on behalf of caesium

please just don't say anything else - tyrant also
03-29-2009 11:58 PM
Community Member
 
Well idk its kinda of true
Once you learn the map well its not really a problem

I understand being a hassle for people who are learning how to bhop though
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