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Limit Number of times you can det an SG Issue Tools
issueid=171 05-20-2009 05:43 AM
Slayer of humans
Limit Number of times you can det an SG
Many as of late seem to be deting their SG instead of it getting killed by someone.

In many of the games I have been playing as of late engi's have been detonating their SGs instead of letting it get killed and letting the person who tossed the grenades or wasted a bunch of ammo on it get the kill point(s). While it is part of the game, its very cheap and there are no drawbacks to it. They can destroy is, and have it back up in seconds.

So I have some suggestions to help curb this cheap, and very unsportsmanlike move. Some of these could be used in combination with each other. The numbers i suggest below are just that, suggests, a starting point that could go higher or lower.



If its detonated after it takes damage engi looses 1000 fortress points and gets a death added onto his score and a kill removed. If it has taken damage the last player to damage it gets rewarded with the points they would have gotten if they had destroyed it.


Limit detonation of SGs to 4 or 5 a game. Not a very popular idea I know but after you used up those 4 or 5 times at least the people who do damage to it would get their points with destroying it.


After detonating SG, another can't be built for 2 to 3 minutes, if it has taken damage. If it hasn't taken damage then another can't be built for 30 seconds.


If SG has been damaged then detonating and dismantling are impossible till repaired.


I wouldn't mind seeing this cheap and unsportsmanlike behavior stopped.
This issue is closed. No more replies may be made.
Issue Details
Issue Type Feature
Project Fortress Forever
Category General Game
Status Rejected
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version 2.4
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 0
Votes against this feature 11
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

05-20-2009 05:50 AM
Keep On Keepin' On
 
lol? ಠ_ಠ
05-20-2009 08:29 AM
Banned
 
NO.

Think about it, if the Engineer detonates his shit, you've succeeded in getting rid of it regardless. Stop whining about the weakest class in theory in Fortress Forever and move up.
05-20-2009 06:48 PM
Time Lord, Doctor
 
If anything a detonate could result in being destroyed by the person who did most damage to it rather than counting as a detonate.
05-20-2009 07:52 PM
UI Designer
Front-End Developer
 
The detonating feature is fine, there is no need to change it. Wasn't a problem in TFC and is not a problem now.

When I pub, if I see a spy trying to sap my SG, BAM, they die. Not unsportmens like or even close to that. Why? Because I just destroyed my SG to kill one single person, instead of running and shooting the spy. Now, not only do I have to run back to the spot I had my SG, but I have to rebuild it and upgrade it twice.

Now, let's but this into play with your suggestion Gwar.

(I'll do this more towards clan play)

We have two Medics on O, now, one medic is attacking the SG and gets too close to the SG, BAM, SG is detonated in order to hurt the medic and hopefully catching up/helping out with damage. Now we have to wait 2 to 3 mintues to build another SG.

Now, if the engy is part of bottlenecking, they have just become useless as there SG is what makes the other team think for a second. It'd make a fast paced game become slow paced for the engy.

So now we det a SG with no damage to move it, UGH I gotta wait 30 SECONDS to build a new one. There goes 2 medics because they conced by me with out taking as much damage as they could of. (concing depends on how well they can conc, but screw ups do happen)


Gotta remember, Engys have 80/50, that's NOT alot of health at all. 8 out of 10 engys in a Pub will not use Disp for detting, but for cells and ammo. Pretty much making the engy useless for 2-3 minutes as all he can do is Shot, Throw Grenades. Detting the SG could mean slowing down O by a few seconds letting and your team mates know, your SG is down and medic is hurt.

I <3 engys

/end rant on making me wait to rebuild my SG.
05-20-2009 08:44 PM
Slayer of humans
 
Thats just it, they are destroying it when no one is near it.


I have no problems with it being detonated when a spy/scout or anyone else is beside it just to take out that person.

The problem I have is when someone is shooting it from a distance or tossed a couple of grenades at it or a mirv and they detonate it just to stop you from getting any points.


This is why I made all the different suggestions so that people wouldn't get all caught up with "oh you want to make a weak class weaker" crap that I see. Yes the engi is weak, I've made suggestions on how to make the class stronger in the past. Whats being done now is unsportsmanlike.


Many of you jumped on the "you're weakening the engi" no one even bothered to see that I never you would encure penalties for dismantling the SG, just detonating it.


Oh and big deal about not being able to destroy or dismantle it till its fixed, one wack by any number of engis on your team will fix it. And that takes what a whole second to wack it with a wrench, or 5 seconds if you have to come from a spawn and there are no other engis around.


Some people are acting like its the end of the engi to do this, no its not. It just punishes people for unsportsmanlike behavior.


And yes I think the SG is weak, it needs about 10% to 15% more detection range, need to be a little faster to stop anything but the scout from doing circles around it, needs more armor and do about 10% more damage.

I think except for moving the sg should be a mini tank.
05-20-2009 09:44 PM
I am Redeye for anything.
 
There are finer points to this subject. I for one, do not believe that a demo pipe jumping across any given map, and spamming mirvs over an sg should be rewarded for that behavior/tactic.

On an another level, when someone sees a sg in an area, they tend to spam all thier nades off a wall, around a corner, hoping to get a easy kill.

This part may apply to you. As an ng, my job is area denial.

If I see someone drop all thier nades on my sg, and its gonna die, Ill det it.

Not just to keep them from being rewarded for what I consider a bad choice in tactics, but they are not sure if they got it or not.

With no death notice, they have no clue, maybe someone was standing in the flight path of all thier nades, bouncing them off of thier body away from sg.

Now that attacker has to take more time to think, if indeed he is a thinking type player. Is it still there?

Is there another opponent in the room with the sg? Who knows, not you, and I think that is really your problem.

The fact that someone can do something with a buildable that you cannot use to your advantage.

You are gonna be forced to listen for that sg, or use your instincts, to know your spamm was on target.

If your really honestly on just about points, well, I dont know what to say to you.

Personal points are about as important as what shoes you are wearing while you play FF.


Look an entire post addressing your issues, with not one mention of the status of the class of ng. Imagine that.
05-20-2009 11:57 PM
Keep On Keepin' On
 
OH NO! My points are less than yours cause I didn't get those VITAL sg killing points. I am now less of a person because I have no points to prove I killed something. Oh woes me. :'(
05-21-2009 12:07 AM
Beware the Hammer
Buffalo Butterpuss
 
SG detonation is not at all a problem. whether you kill the SG or it gets detonated, its still dead, which was the whole purpose of you attacking it in the first place. there is nothing cheap or unsportsmanlike about detting your SG when you know it is going to die in order to be able to rebuild another sooner than waiting for it to die.
05-21-2009 01:32 AM
 
46 and 2: It might not have been you (I can't remember), but I played someone with the Talos tag who was FANATICAL about detonating their sentry at the very HINT of it being destroyed. It wasn't what you were describing at all. It was almost like he was making it impossible to ever destroy his sentry, it wasn't about "keeping them guessing," he was doing it right in front of me while I was still attacking it (rather than taking advantage of the distraction to attack me). I'm guessing this could be the same person Gwarsbane ran into. To me it's not like it's a big deal, it's just annoying. I think the last panel of this comic sums up the attitude he's talking about:
05-22-2009 02:22 AM
I am Redeye for anything.
 
Of course it was me.

I dont know what you guys are on about, really.

My sg is like vulnerable. It cant move. It cant read your intent. It sits there and gets shot. So, instead of trying to wrench my sg, wich never results in a surviving sg, or instead of running around trying to shoot a scout/med that is strafing/edging my sg, I kill it.

If they are strafing, they tend to die in the det.

If its being edged by some nail gun, and I know its gonna die, WHY THE FUCK CANT I DET IT TO BUILD IT IN ANOTHER SPOT?

I am supposed to wait at YOUR lesiure, to blow up my sg, so I can then build it again, if that is ok with you? ROFL.

The spot I choose the first time I built it was not wise, for whatever reason. You telling me, that I cant figure out the placement sucks , thru the very fact that you are killing my sg and not the other way around, that I cant move it? Its not like your about to kill me, and I team switch to prevent death.

Its a fucking tool, which I can use as a gun, bomb, spy alarm, or bait for offense. Its mine, to det and build as I see fit. You see, the act of detonation is a strategic decision .

I see alot of ngs re building sgs in the same spot they just got blown up in. Im an ng who moves his gun around alot.

Shit son, I det my sg sometimes, if its tactical, after it gets enough kills to become a target. When the enemy team comes looking for it to kill it, it can kill them, or keep them looking.

The very fact that an sg is in any given location is strategic info.

Fuck,just using death messages, or lack of them, its part of the game.

If your team dont see my sg death message, regaurdless of whats going on, they just dont know. I could care less about points, if you get them from me, my sg, disp, or w/e.

Wow, how the hell do you guys ever have fun on maps?

Do you get mad when you die?

What about maps where you die alot, mulch, or waterpolo, or bball.

Your points are in question, being affected and all. Do you avoid those types of maps? I wish points would go away.

Along with this thread.

There is alot of information management going on in FF. This is one tiny aspect of ng class.

There are many reasons and stratagies to move an sg. Maybe that will help.

Stop thinking of it as me stealing from you. I have no other way to move my sg to a new spot. There. Fixed. /thread.
05-22-2009 07:12 AM
 
46 and 2: Chill out man. I don't think it's a big deal either way, though if you were the person I saw, I think your defense of the tactic is a little hollow. Yes there are legitimate reasons to detonate it, but if you're convinced you're on the moral high ground, tell me why would you detonate it if it's firing on me (outside of detonation blast range) and I'm attacking it when you could be attacking me? Instead of having your sg and yourself attack me at the same time, you not only take out your sg prematurely and thus have less firepower to kill me with, but you make yourself a target at the same time. In those situations, why would you blow your sg for any reason other than to deny kills?

And for what it's worth I love waterpolo (even though every time I play people seem to rtv) and I don't pay attention to fortress points. It's just more satisfying to kill something rather than see people suicide instead.
05-22-2009 10:24 PM
UI Designer
Front-End Developer
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
46 and 2: Chill out man. I don't think it's a big deal either way, though if you were the person I saw, I think your defense of the tactic is a little hollow. Yes there are legitimate reasons to detonate it, but if you're convinced you're on the moral high ground, tell me why would you detonate it if it's firing on me (outside of detonation blast range) and I'm attacking it when you could be attacking me? Instead of having your sg and yourself attack me at the same time, you not only take out your sg prematurely and thus have less firepower to kill me with, but you make yourself a target at the same time. In those situations, why would you blow your sg for any reason other than to deny kills?

And for what it's worth I love waterpolo (even though every time I play people seem to rtv) and I don't pay attention to fortress points. It's just more satisfying to kill something rather than see people suicide instead.
If you are outside the blast radius there would be no reason to detonate it, and that person should be shooting at you. Detonating it would allow that person to be able to move forward faster.
05-24-2009 04:38 PM
 
just go sniper, that'll solve your problems.

I've never had an sg det'd on me. lol.
05-26-2009 02:53 AM
 
Real men dismantle when they see a mirv on their sentry.
05-26-2009 03:07 PM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
why would you blow your sg for any reason other than to deny kills?
Quick retreats. There are hundreds of examples and scenarios I could use for all sorts of different maps. But I'll use Aardvark for an example.

Say 46 and 2 built his sg right on the lasers and a medic is nailgunning it from the top of the ramp. So while the medic is engaged on the sg, has probably wasted atleast 1 nade(out of the 2 he spawns with) and maybe atleast 1/3 of his nails. Poof the sg disappeared on him, so he continues to the fr only to find the new sg at level 1 already, and quickly up to level 3 because a dispenser is close by for upgrades.

The medic has only 1 nade left, and not his full capacity of nails. How's he gonna take down this new sg? He won't unless there's more help from friendly O.

Also destroying it to avoid letting the enemy know they've taken it down is a great strategy, one of the better ones. A demo is spamming the shit out of it with mirvs, det the sg, move it to the other side of the room, then the next run the demo has he wastes a mirv in the area he still thinks the sg is in.

The ghost image of the sg while it's being built is a great shield for the engy. Solly is rpging the the sg from a distance, engy knows he won't be able to keep it up, det/dismantle it and rebuild it, keep rebuilding it as long as you see rockets inc. The ghost image of the sg will eat every rocket, once the rockets are out, build the sg up, and the solly will either have to wait to reload or try his luck on the sg with no rockets.

The SG is the engy's tool. It's his perogative to use all his tools however he sees fit (even if this means griefing by building infront of doorways and stuff). My arguement has nothing to do with "weakening the sg/engy", it's about taking away a players choices with the tools they have.

It'd be like saying, the solly can only rj 2 times in a row then his rpg jams for 5 seconds. How do you monitor what's a rj and what's splash damage? Why are we limiting the tools we gave the solly? It should be his right to rj as many times as his hp and loaded rockets lasts.
05-26-2009 04:08 PM
G9-
 
Well put Banana, well put. I just think most ppl grief about stuff like this b/c they care just about kills and stats. Pretty much an issue with any game like this out there, not giving 2 shit's about team play. This is just my opinion, not saying anyone here in this thread is.
05-27-2009 01:12 AM
 
Hammock: That doesn't apply to the situation I'm talking about (though I could clarify it more). Here's what I mean:

The sg is right in front of me (outside det range) firing at me. The engineer is there watching, going after me with his shotgun. While the sg and I are attacking each other, he blows it before I can destroy it. I'm still alive and he is trying to kill me just by himself now (not rebuilding, not making me guess where the sg is, etc.).
05-27-2009 05:44 AM
Gets tickled by FF
 
yeah clever tactic eh?
05-27-2009 11:33 AM
A Very Sound Guy!
 
ok i think we're starting to go round in circles with this. i think the consensus is crystal clear
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