Fortress Forever

Go Back   Fortress Forever > Projects > Fortress Forever > Feature

Replacement for Legshot Slow Issue Tools
issueid=183 06-29-2009 09:06 PM
Banned
Replacement for Legshot Slow

I made this suggestion a while back, but considering we have the 'Projects' forum, I'm going to bring it back up here and see how many people are in favor or against the idea.

Legshots are pretty cheap. I think a lot of players agree with this, even people who play Sniper. I don't see anyone using Sniper actually trying to land legshots. Either they have other things to worry about or agree that it's cheap to a point where they refuse to go for them.

The idea behind legshots is simple and should be obvious. It's for the sniper that can't hit moving targets. If just once they can pop the enemy in the legs, they can put them at snail's pace, charge up a shot, and plant one in their skull.

But, this can be exploited easily by Snipers who actually know what they are doing. It's a direct counter, not an alternative means of sniping. The player at the other end is already making a brave move by advancing as a slower class, and has to worry about getting slugged in the chest or head. But, they also have to worry about legshots, which make them even more of a target.

When they do get hit with a legshot, they're screwed. Everyone I know that gets hit with a legshot as a Soldier looks down and commences operation 'blow myself the fuck up' immediately. No one likes to die like that. It's so cheap. Once they're crawling, they have no option. They're going to get hit.

So, I suggest giving the person on the other end more of a choice. Legshots should instead cause massive bleeding. The bleeding lasts for 10 seconds, and can be healed at any time by a Medic. Essentially, if they move within the 10 seconds, the damage they would be dealt would be dependent on how fast they were moving (hud_speedometer). A person standing still would be dealt no damage, a person walking would be dealt medium damage, and a person running at full speed would be dealt full damage. The legshot would not stack, and there would be a 5 second delay after the bleeding ultimately wore off before the sniper could inflict another damaging shot to the legs.
Issue Details
Issue Type Feature
Project Fortress Forever
Category Classes (Scout/Engineer/etc)
Status Suggested
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version 2.4
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 3
Votes against this feature 3
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

06-29-2009 10:09 PM
QUAD ROCKET
 
Good idea, leg shots don't belong in this game.
Reply
06-29-2009 11:27 PM
 
Not 100% sold on the bleeding, creative though and better than the way it is currently.
Reply
06-30-2009 02:56 AM
Stuff Do-er
 
Bloodseeker.

Interesting idea, but it still might be frustrating. Who knows.
Reply
06-30-2009 04:23 AM
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
 
I like the bleeding idea... maybe just a little bit of damage from the legshot (10?).

I think rather than a total slowdown, we should just have a temporary slowdown. Kind of like if you're jogging and you trip - you stumble but you can get back into your pace pretty quickly. A 1 second slowdown wouldn't be as much of a mark of death.

After getting hit by a legshot, there ought to be an immunity of 15 seconds or so. Snipers being able to continually legshot someone with the new system would be just as broken as the current one.
Reply
07-01-2009 11:28 PM
Wiki Standards Team
 
I purposely use(d) leg shots to slow people down and annoy the hell out of them. They are rather obnoxious and sort of cheap. But with the hit detection being as terrible as it is there isn't much of a choice. This does sound like a cool idea though.
Reply
07-02-2009 05:16 PM
 
really the sniper needs the legshot, the sniper has no up close defense, i can't tell you how many times i've seen a solider charging me, and know i have no chance of servial i pop him in the leg and run, and my teams mates finish him off, this may be considered cheap by some, but it is one of the few choices a sniper has in close battles.

the leg shot is also not only a slow someone down and then pop them in the head manuover, for example when i play arddvark and 5 enemies appear in the yard i hit each one in the leg (or try to) before going for kills, it is far more valuable to my team and my survival.

in my opinon, if you remove the legshot slowdown the spy tranq gun should also be changed or removed, becasue when i get shot by a spy with a tranq in a close battle, i go for a quick charge shot to the leg, almost no dmg but it puts the spy at my speed so i don't die instantly. the tranq gun is devistating to all classes when used correctly, just like the legshot is when used correctly.

very few people use the legshot to its full potential, and thats what people are complaing about, the random legshot every once and a while is not a bother. so punishing the half dozen or so snipers that are effective with it seems more so unfair then the legshot to begin with.
Reply
07-02-2009 05:38 PM
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO
really the sniper needs the legshot, the sniper has no up close defense, i can't tell you how many times i've seen a solider charging me, and know i have no chance of servial i pop him in the leg and run, and my teams mates finish him off, this may be considered cheap by some, but it is one of the few choices a sniper has in close battles.
The sniper is supposed to finish the enemy before he even has a chance to get close. If someone manages to get close to the sniper, his only (limited) defense should be running away (like the coward he is) firing his nail gun or assault rifle while tossing primed nades. He shouldn't have a direct counter to people at close range, because that's his weakness. He compensates for his weakness by keeping people away when they are at long range. So, if he fucks up and they manage to get close, they should have the advantage, not him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO
the leg shot is also not only a slow someone down and then pop them in the head manuover, for example when i play arddvark and 5 enemies appear in the yard i hit each one in the leg (or try to) before going for kills, it is far more valuable to my team and my survival.
I don't care why or how you use legshots; they are cheap. Trying to justify them using that argument is like someone trying to justify using a real weapon in a paintball tournament. "It's more effective!" .. yeah well that doesn't make it okay. (I know I've used this example before.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO
in my opinon, if you remove the legshot slowdown the spy tranq gun should also be changed or removed, becasue when i get shot by a spy with a tranq in a close battle, i go for a quick charge shot to the leg, almost no dmg but it puts the spy at my speed so i don't die instantly. the tranq gun is devistating to all classes when used correctly, just like the legshot is when used correctly.
You forget that the person who gets tranq'd most of the time has the chance to fight back considering the spy actually has balls and is in close combat, unlike that coward we call Sniper. You also forget that tranq only lasts a few seconds, where the legshot lasts seemingly for-fucking-ever, you also forgot that tranq shots don't stack like the legshot. You also forgot that the tranq gun is usually a giveaway to the Spy's location, where the legshot is not a give-away to the Sniper's location. You also forgot the tranq gun takes skill to use. You actually have to lead your targets (it isn't hitscan instant), you don't get a scope on it, it doesn't do massive amounts of damage before it slows, and using it at long range is close to impossible.

Legshot is cheap, there is no need to try and defend it. You're the Sniper. You're free to sit in a corner someplace a thousand miles away from the real action and pick off players who are actually brave enough to jump into the action. You have a weapon that can kill every class in one hit when fully charged. You already have radio tag. You don't need two abilities. Especially considering how cheap one of them is. A one-shot one-kill rifle should be enough.
Reply
07-02-2009 06:22 PM
Slayer of humans
 
I like playing sniper. I also specifically going after leg shots just because it slows the people down.

I don't do it to make my kill shot easier, if I wanted I could shot them in the chest or head. I do it because its funny. There are some people who do try to kill themselves after getting legged but not many.

Most of the people I play with know that when I leg them its because I can. I could have killed them out right but legging them was more fun.

Not its not just to have fun, if one of my team is being chased, I will try to leg/kill someone to give them a chance. If there are lots of people out in the field, I will start legging people to slow them down to give my team a chance to either get them or get ready or to get the flag back to base.


When I get legged, as any class, I try to survive. There are many times when I get nailed as a spy, I'm legged, I'm tagged, and I'm low on health so now I'm just looking for a place to hide till my leg heals.


Personally I like legging and being legged. I wouldn't want it changed, except for the fact that the medic should be able to heal the leg and remove a tag from someone. I don't remember right now if they do heal broken legs.


Bridget just can't seem to get by the snipers, I don't seem to have a problem with it, I actually like it when I am going up against 3 or 4 snipers.
Reply
07-02-2009 07:28 PM
Banned
 
I can get past them just fine with classes that can move fast. But, I don't feel like playing those classes just to get past Snipers. I want to play actually skill-full classes, that are unfortunately very slow, and easy picking for fucking lamers. For starters, Sniper doesn't belong in this game. Every class except Sniper is about close to medium range fighting. To have one class completely off the 'scale' is pathetic. Just because it was in TFC doesn't mean it should be here. 'Sniper' has been OP in every game. Until they add some realism to Sniping, it will always be OP. Point and click.

Snipers are cowards. Once you close the gap they run scared to their base. Then, when they hide next to their spawn door, and you kill them to protect yourself or your team, they get all teary-eyed and accuse you of spawn camping. In fact, I've been kicked from a few servers because of this, banned from one. Apparently its spawn-spam to defend yourself against Snipers, as if they're immune simply because they're Snipers and so close to their spawn. But, yeah, Sniper doesn't belong in this game, at all. It's unfair that everyone's at close/medium range battling it out, equally putting themselves at risk, while Mr. Sniper is halfway across the map picking them off one by one.

So, I say.. If you're going to keep such a cowardice class in the game, get rid of legshots. It's bad enough he has a one-shot one-kill weapon and radio tag, and he hides in his base or near his spawn doors, gains some immunity throughout servers by the admins because killing them happens to take place next to spawn, so they equate it to spawn spam. He doesn't need two special abilities. He already has a handful of advantages. Again, especially considering how fucking cheap one of them is.
Reply
07-02-2009 10:04 PM
 
<Sniper is not OP/should stay rant, skip to the opinion on the idea>
Considering the size of AoE of the explosives in the game, you've got plenty of options to disrupt an enemy Sniper. The RPG AoE is pretty big, and the Sniper won't be able to shot properly/at all because of that; the IC AoE is the same as the RPG and ignites the Sniper, making it a bit harder to aim because the damage twitch screws up your aim. Other classes should just try to just outspeed his aim, like Scouts, Medics or Demomen; Engineers and Spies have pin-point accuracy weapons that severly cripple the Sniper or his aim. The one who has it harder in the set of classes is the HW, and even then using the single shotgun against the Sniper can save you from getting hit due to the damage twitch. All classes have decent options of increasing their chances to survive.

It looks that you are biased against the Snipers. This whole "they are cowards" is a generalization - some Snipers prefer to die and hurt the opponent that keep their K:D ratio (and some like me think the AR is lame and use the SR at close range, but this is another story). Most Snipers run away because they've got little to no option to fight at that range, pretty much what you should be doing (running towards the enemy base is also running, mind you) when the situation is the inverse, but you decide to say that Snipers shouldn't even be in the game. Or you try to kill Snipers at long range with the HW? Not to mention the fact that the bullet is one pixel size, hitbox acting weird at high speeds, etc. And yes, the fact that he can even kill you in one hit from close range is odd, but considering that you've got the advantage, it just means he's got better aim than you do, which is what usually determines who wins a matchup in a FPS. Remember that throwing a grenade around his general area means he won't be able to fire the SR due to not being able to shot midair and all that stuff, and a direct grenade will either kill him by fall damage when he lands or by your own shotgun.

Not to mention that the maps where they really are effective (long range maps) are few, it's just that aardvark is very popular and has no secondary route to cross the map, making him more annoying.

I think it's needed to have one class capable of dealing at enemies quick at long range. Many other classes do this at close range (HW, Pyro, Soldier) and at medium range (Soldier, Demoman). The fact that he's got the only reliable weapon for long range makes him the target of rage, but this is the reason why I get pumped up when I'm able to get near him and make him eat a few IC rockets before killing him with the crowbar - more than doing so against a HW.
</end rant>

On topic
I don't think this idea is more fitting. People don't like getting hurt, so changing not being able to move for being able but damaging yourself in the proccess won't solve the issue. And if you consider that the classes that will survive a full charged shot in the legs (Demoman is the first one, I believe?) will have under 30 HP, I bet they'll end up suiciding anyways.

What needs to be done is fixing the cripple so it's not the same during the full period. This has been mentioned already, but making it progressive would be the way to go, probably with less speed penalty but stackable to an extent. Say a leg shot reduces 20% of the speed and recovers 4% per second, but if you get hit again in the legs another 20% is added, up to a maximum of 50-60%.
Reply
07-13-2009 03:37 AM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO
really the sniper needs the legshot, the sniper has no up close defense, i can't tell you how many times i've seen a solider charging me, and know i have no chance of servial i pop him in the leg and run, and my teams mates finish him off, this may be considered cheap by some, but it is one of the few choices a sniper has in close battles.

the leg shot is also not only a slow someone down and then pop them in the head manuover, for example when i play arddvark and 5 enemies appear in the yard i hit each one in the leg (or try to) before going for kills, it is far more valuable to my team and my survival.

in my opinon, if you remove the legshot slowdown the spy tranq gun should also be changed or removed, becasue when i get shot by a spy with a tranq in a close battle, i go for a quick charge shot to the leg, almost no dmg but it puts the spy at my speed so i don't die instantly. the tranq gun is devistating to all classes when used correctly, just like the legshot is when used correctly.

very few people use the legshot to its full potential, and thats what people are complaing about, the random legshot every once and a while is not a bother. so punishing the half dozen or so snipers that are effective with it seems more so unfair then the legshot to begin with.
I'd have to agree. Leg shots are a major role in slowing the offense down especially if you can get one on an experienced scout. Imho I think it should be left as is
Reply
07-18-2009 07:35 AM
 
I didn't mind sniper so much in TFC - they couldn't fire nearly as quick, you couldn't get legshots as easily (and radio tags weren't in), and, most importantly I feel, the maps didn't favor them as much as in FF.

Take the maps that are really commonly played - well, 2fort, congestus, destroy, anticitizen, aardvark, dustbowl...etc etc. Most of these are incredibly sniper friendly. Well? Snipers walk five feet and can get a complete view of the field. Nobody can get into their spawn unless a teammate opens it from the bottom, and even then, spawn turrets will shoot the enemy. Aardvark? Again, the best sniping spot is five feet from spawn, and if you even think of trying to camp the sniper deck, you'll be accused of spawn camping right there and then - disregard the deaths you've had as you popped out of spawn, as the sniper is the whole field away - it's totally fair! cough

And then there's the legshot/radio tag ordeal. I wouldn't mind if the sniper rifle took longer to fire in between shots...but since they can fire twice a second, they can pop everyone on the field with a legshot before the enemy team reaches their base. So far, the only options I've heard to NOT get hit by snipers while crossing the yard are either to go fast (scout), or go in packs.

Quote:
the leg shot is also not only a slow someone down and then pop them in the head manuover, for example when i play arddvark and 5 enemies appear in the yard i hit each one in the leg (or try to) before going for kills, it is far more valuable to my team and my survival.
Quote:
Not its not just to have fun, if one of my team is being chased, I will try to leg/kill someone to give them a chance. If there are lots of people out in the field, I will start legging people to slow them down to give my team a chance to either get them or get ready or to get the flag back to base.
But going in packs doesn't work if you're using any class going slower than a scout or maybe medic, as the snipers in this thread have attested to.

We've had two ideas for how to make legshots more balanced so far - either cause damage based on movement speed, or remove less movement speed, but have it stack.
For Bridget's bleeding idea...ehh. If you're going to have to stop moving quickly in order to not kill yourself, the snipers will still get you. This'd pose a huge problem for medium/light classes. For 20% reductions per legshot...again, it's a huge amount - you're losing all momentum from getting hit, including bhopping, and then having the 20% reduction on top of that.

How about this: in order for the sniper rifle's specialties to work, the sniper needs to charge up his rifle past a certain point. Say, the radiotag won't work until he's charged for a second and a half; the legshot wouldn't proc until 2.5-3 seconds have passed.

For lighter classes - scouts, medics, the like - they'd probably die before ever seeing any of these effects, but it'd remove the irritation of being hit for a whopping 30 damage, but being dead meat due to losing all movement capabilities.

For heavier classes - sollies, demos, heavies - they also wouldn't be stuck in the field nearly as often. They'd still take a lot of damage if the sniper managed to pop them in the head repeatedly with uncharged shots, but at least they wouldn't be goners after one hit. If the sniper DOES charge up a shot, and hits a heavy in the leg, then...well, he's dead or close to it, but hey, it's because he took a fully charged shot (which I wouldn't mind).

It's not that any of these extra things for the sniper are really game breaking on their own - hell, I kinda like the idea of radio tags, in theory - but it's far too easy to slap them on anyone that comes into the yard. There needs to be some kind of a restriction.
Reply
07-18-2009 04:19 PM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynian
How about this: in order for the sniper rifle's specialties to work, the sniper needs to charge up his rifle past a certain point. Say, the radiotag won't work until he's charged for a second and a half; the legshot wouldn't proc until 2.5-3 seconds have passed.
That I actually like...although I still feel we're just avoiding the real problem, it like the idea.
Reply
07-23-2009 05:59 PM
 
i was always under the impression that the sniper need to become more useful to be played in more different game types and areas, instead of making trying to make him more useless. imo a player should not be able to jump/bhop with a legshot, most players who know what they are doing and know how to build speed quickly can still move quite fast with a legshot.

but i suppose thats a different discussion all together most would argue a complete reworking is in order.
Reply
07-23-2009 06:19 PM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO

but i suppose thats a different discussion all together most would argue a complete reworking is in order.
this
Reply
Reply

Issue Tools
Subscribe to this issue

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.