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Implement Changes to Improve upon FF Issue Tools
issueid=252 01-07-2010 02:42 PM
Implement Changes to Improve upon FF

Instead of making a duplication of all the problems TFC had, and its glitches why not expand upon and improve the older game with FF. Lets have a analysis of FF and see what we can do to make it better and thus give everyone the experience that we all so remember to the first year of TFC.

I don't see how FF is going to dramatically increase its player base over TFC considering it's so similar. The FF team says they made an effort to get more new players, but it's obvious after playing the release that it was tailored just for the tiny TFC community circa 2007. It carries over all the old movement exploits from TFC.

"Conc jumping" was a part of competitive TFC play during its first two years of release, but all the newer things that where discovered like "bunny hopping", "skimming", etc... was not. Most people who were playing the game in 1999 quit after the new exploits were discovered. The game became less about teamwork and more about who could figure out how to move 2x as fast through the maps. Why bother grouping up and working as a team when you can just outrun everyone? Why bother using Scout when every other class can move as fast?

Valve tried to correct the exploit in the 1.1.0.8 patch. Unfortunately it couldn't be removed completely. It was reduced as much as possible without changing the engine.

Grenades are another issue. Priming grenades in TFC was a lot of fun, but the problem is that the game essentially becomes a complete spam fest. Anyone who has played openfire_l knows this. Map strategies essentially become the process of finding which chokepoints to continually spam with grenades for 30 minutes. Most classes can carry up to 4 frag grenades each time they spawn, so you're gonna throw at least one grenade at every persons you face.

A lot of the current TFC crowd obviously thinks that TF2 is made for n00bs because it doesn't keep all the old exploits. The thing is that as fun as TFC is, it has serious balance problems. Valve knows this and is attempting to give us finely tuned balance and emphasize teamplay. But TFC definitely needs a gameplay refresh instead of a direct port. Making TFC into a newer game and giving the people who dislike TF2 for its unrealistic/hectic gameplay an option to play something a bit more serous.

A run down of the changes to implement.

* Remove Bunny Hoping. (after a jump you temporarily slow down to 50% of your speed)

* Decrease amount of Grenades to 2. Give them a priming time of 5 seconds before exploding, longer you keep the button pressed the longer you hold the grenade before throwing it (perhaps allow demoman to have 4).

* Slightly decrease the scouts movement speed (I'm guessing that it was done so over the top to put the scout on par with bunny hoppers)
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Issue Details
Issue Type Feature
Project Fortress Forever
Category General Game
Status Rejected
Priority 1 - Highest
Suggested Version Undefined
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 1
Votes against this feature 1
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

01-07-2010 02:46 PM
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUnbeholden
Grenades are another issue. Priming grenades in TFC was a lot of fun, but the problem is that the game essentially becomes a complete spam fest. Anyone who has played openfire_l knows this. Map strategies essentially become the process of finding which chokepoints to continually spam with grenades for 30 minutes. Most classes can carry up to 4 frag grenades each time they spawn, so you're gonna throw at least one grenade at every persons you face.
This is true, and for the past week (I've been playing TFC because my video card is broken and can only handle Goldsrc games, lol) has irritated me so much. If you join a popular TFC server and pay attention to the upper right 'kill notifications' then it becomes overwhelmingly obvious that most of the kills are from two broken aspects of the game: Snipers and grenades. I am not going to argue against Snipers, no matter how much I think they don't deserve to be in a game where all the other classes have range restrictions. It's a topic for another time, but I do want to address grenades.

Grenades are too powerful, which is ironic, because I imagine their original purpose was to act as a support item, something to give you an edge in a fight or help you finish off an opponent. In reality, grenades are so powerful, that you can essentially use nothing but grenades to combat people in Team Fortress games. You can absolutely neglect using your class weapons, because a single fragmentation grenade is usually enough to take out anyone, as no one runs around all the time with perfect health; They're going to have some 'bumps and bruises'.

The fragmentation grenade is powerful enough to destroy a sentry gun assuming the sentry has a few slivers of health sliced off from its maximum health. Now, take a look at something like the Mirv. It deals an inital blast equal to a single fragmentation grenade, then drops four 'Mirvlets' which act as fragmentation grenades as well. You have five grenades in one with the Mirv. Overpowered much? This is a huge balance problem, but people tend to 'cling' to the Mirv, because it was in TFC and holds some 'memories' or 'nostalgia' with them.

Grenades need to be removed or reworked to act as non-combat tools. Let me just throw a random idea out. Made up on the spot! The Mirv, for example. What if it could be dropped (not tossed, negating any possible use as weapon) and then opened, depositing five yellow manually detonate-able pipes where it disassembled? These wouldn't explode or deal damage, unless the demoman used his alt-fire button. This acts as a 'tool' instead of a weapon. He can now quickly set up pipe traps and is free to deal combat damage with his real weapons, such as the blue pipes or his single shotgun. Get what I'm saying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUnbeholden
* Remove Bunny Hoping. (after a jump you temporarily slow down to 50% of your speed)
I would be open to seeing bunny hop limited to only the Scout. He is, after all, the 'movement class'. There are too many already-implemented means of movement that, while they require some skill and practice, are not as counter intuitive as bunny hopping. Examples such as grenade jumping, rocket jumping, trimping, concussion grenades, jump pads, and so on and so forth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUnbeholden
* Decrease amount of Grenades to 2. Give them a priming time of 5 seconds before exploding, longer you keep the button pressed the longer you hold the grenade before throwing it (perhaps allow demoman to have 4).
I am for decreasing grenades, I suggested that one should have two frag grenades maximum and one secondary 'unique grenade' maximum if they were not reworked. In addition, I would like to see a system that 'powers up the grenades', as I suggested a long time ago: The longer you keep a grenade primed, the more damage it deals (working from no damage to 100% damage as intended now). This punishes people who spam their grenades mindlessly without a prime and rewards those who are conservative and use them correctly.

No comment on the Scout bunny hop decrease. I 'unno.
01-07-2010 03:11 PM
 
I would like to at least one version of this mod with these changes implemented to see if the reaction is positive or if the popularity of mod will suddenly increase. If so then keep the changes for future versions (some servers could still have the option to enable bunny hopping to keep the fans of it happy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
I am for decreasing grenades, I suggested that one should have two frag grenades maximum and one secondary 'unique grenade' maximum if they were not reworked.

Unique grenades sounds like a interesting idea. TF2 in its development stages had different grenade types but never made it into the final product. I would actually like to see this in FF if its done in a way that makes it more tactical and impossible to really spam with.

This will definitely keep the flavor of TFC at the same time giving something new/more balanced.
01-07-2010 03:18 PM
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUnbeholden
I would like to at least one version of this mod with these changes implemented to see if the reaction is positive or if the popularity of mod will suddenly increase. . .
That's why Fortress Forever has a beta team.

Quote:
This will definitely keep the flavor of TFC at the same time giving something new/more balanced.
I think people make a mistake by suggesting or implying that FF should follow in the footsteps of Team Fortress Classic. It should make its own footsteps using the same pair of shoes. (For anyone confused by that, Fortress Forever should be a 'Team Fortress' game, not a 'Like Team Fortress Classic' game.)
01-07-2010 04:05 PM
 
We can not address these issues in all one post. Again, please separate each of your ideas out into it's own suggestion. Only then can we address them and make decisions/adjust/and assign them.
Closed

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