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Remove Bunny Hopping. Issue Tools
issueid=255 01-08-2010 04:44 AM
Remove Bunny Hopping.

* Remove Bunny Hopping. (or at least a feature to enable/disable bunny hop when creating a server)
This issue is closed. No more replies may be made.
Issue Details
Issue Type Feature
Project Fortress Forever
Category General Game
Status Rejected
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version Undefined
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 2
Votes against this feature 26
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

01-08-2010 04:50 AM
 
Lets have a analysis of FF and see what we can do to make it better and thus give everyone the experience that we all so remember to the first year of TFC.

I don't see how FF is going to dramatically increase its player base over TFC considering it's so similar. The FF team says they made an effort to get more new players, but it's obvious after playing the release that it was tailored just for the tiny TFC community circa 2007. It carries over all the old movement exploits from TFC.

"Conc jumping" was a part of competitive TFC play during its first two years of release, but all the newer things that where discovered like "bunny hopping", "skimming", etc... was not. Most people who were playing the game in 1999 quit after the new exploits were discovered. The game became less about teamwork and more about who could figure out how to move 2x as fast through the maps. Why bother grouping up and working as a team when you can just outrun everyone? Why bother using Scout when every other class can move as fast?

Valve tried to correct the exploit in the 1.1.0.8 patch. Unfortunately it couldn't be removed completely. It was reduced as much as possible without changing the engine.

A lot of the current TFC crowd obviously thinks that TF2 is made for n00bs because it doesn't keep all the old exploits. The thing is that as fun as TFC is, it has serious balance problems. Valve knows this and is attempting to give us finely tuned balance and emphasize teamplay. But TFC definitely needs a gameplay refresh instead of a direct port. Giving the people who dislike TF2 an option for something a tad more serous.
01-08-2010 04:58 AM
 
Originally posted by BRIDGET

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUnbeholden
* Remove Bunny Hoping.
I would be open to seeing bunny hop limited to only the Scout. He is, after all, the 'movement class'. There are too many already-implemented means of movement that, while they require some skill and practice, are not as counter intuitive as bunny hopping. Examples such as grenade jumping, rocket jumping, trimping, concussion grenades, jump pads, and so on and so forth.
01-08-2010 05:08 AM
FF Loremaster
 
I just don't think I can agree with anything said here. BHopping is intentional and is now mainstream. It's intentionally coded in to others FPS games. There's no excuse now. It's no longer a physics exploit, it's a game mechanic.

The argument that "TF2 is unrealistic and FF is the serious alternative" is absurd. FF is unrealistic ~ more so than TF2. If you remove the key features this game has then it's TF2 without crits.
01-08-2010 03:35 PM
AKA LittleAndroidMan
 
I agree with Credge--you're wrong on nearly every front.
01-14-2010 09:27 AM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
I just don't think I can agree with anything said here. BHopping is intentional and is now mainstream. It's intentionally coded in to others FPS games. There's no excuse now. It's no longer a physics exploit, it's a game mechanic.

The argument that "TF2 is unrealistic and FF is the serious alternative" is absurd. FF is unrealistic ~ more so than TF2. If you remove the key features this game has then it's TF2 without crits.
Your argument is far to short. :p

You addressed perhaps only a small part of whats been said.

Its actually TF2 without crits, with grenades, bigger maps, :D

The exploit thats been turned into a game mechanic makes scouts obsolete really.

Theres no reason to keep it really. I don't think that simply removing bunny hopping will turn the game into TF2 without crits.... you can't really be serous. Its like your saying the bunny hopping is the only real thing that makes TFC different TF2. There are many things.
01-14-2010 09:54 AM
Stuff Do-er
 
The argument that it makes scouts obsolete makes no sense at all.

Bunnyhop speed is capped at a percentage of the class's base movement speed (currently in FF, it's 140%). That means the scout can move faster while bunnyhopping than any other class.

Also, bunnyhopping is a rather minor part of the overall movement scheme of FF. More importantly, though, it follows directly from other, very core, mechanics. Namely, air acceleration/control and maintaining speed after each jump. Taking either one of those out or changing them will affect way more than just bunnyhopping.
01-14-2010 03:45 PM
 
I see things haven't changed around here! :D
01-15-2010 11:23 AM
FORUM ADM!N
 
He has a good point. His point that I took away form it was that bhopping drives new players away from the game. This is ture and no matter how many old school or new school TFC players argue about it is true. I get that he is trying to come up with ideas to increas the number of FF players by catering the game to do so. We have to face facts that there are only a handfull of pubs that get hit hard everyday and it is the same players. Now someone new will jump on occasionally but after getting slaugthered for two hours straight the decide the game isnt for them. There is documnetation and training on how to become better but 99% of new players are not going to read that shit. The thing that makes TFC2 and games like Call of Duty so likeable is that you can jump in and do decent your first time playing. The games were made to do so. FF is a class based skill level game which means you have to play the class over and over again to get better and better to learn and master the skills and then to move onto other classes. Gamers of today dont have time for this shit. There are too many games to compete with thus if you cannot provide some satisfaction for new gamers they will not play as we can all see is happening. The old school TFC loves bhopping but what needs to be addresses is HOW TO GAIN NEW PLAYERS!!!!! I understand you cannot piss off your core gamers but people need to fucking understand that some things are going to piss you of that need to be implemented to grow the community. If the community does not grow steadily this game will surely die.

dh
01-15-2010 11:33 AM
zE zE is offline
Pew pew ze beams
 
that argument that a newbie comes in and its powned is not really like that, for example when i go play cs source im always uber powned, and yet it have a big community, another thing is put a newbie as pyro vs me as solly i guarantee u that im not able to own him.

But basicly just learn how to bhop its uber easy now.
And what makes ff funneh is the fast paced gamestyle, and it was a lot faster in previous versions. Like a lot +!
01-15-2010 07:56 PM
 
Bunnyhopping is a very strong advantage that the veteran has over the new player. You can look at it like a deterrant/discouragement for the new player, or you can look at it like a challenge/reward - I think it functions as both in some ways.

One of the main draws of TFC/FF is that there is an incredibly long tail (foreshortened somewhat in FF) of technical/technique learning that can be acquired to improve your play. In something like Wow, you level-up to become more powerful - in this game, you acquire advanced movement/attack techniques over time. While it's true that starting off 'weak' in comparison to experienced player and getting owned is discouraging, it also makes acquiring the skills and dominating equal/lesser players into a crack-level pleasure.

TFC/FF have a lot of - IMHO - foundation-level problems, one of which is this: in Wow, if you're a Level 1 player, you play in Level 1 dungeons (or whatever, I don't play it) so the challenge is usually equal to your power/ability; in FF, there are only one maybe two places to play, so newbs get crushed by 10 year veterans and leave in frustration.

I think these two facts are at the core of the eternal dispute about BH: it adds a very fun movement technique that rewards practice and skill, adding depth to the game; at the same time it has a big chilling effect on adoption by new players. It's a catch 22 with the current basic server architecture of these games.

I have long envisioned a server 'ladder' which placed players into a set of servers based on their skill/effectiveness level. What was fun about TFC when it first came out, was that everyone was new, and discovering skills/quirks/exploits gave you an advantage over your peers. Only if newbs play newbs on newb servers, is that kind of magic going to be recreated.

I'm voting 'NO' here, as I think BH now is an integral part of the game, despite the drawbacks. If removed, all kinds of rebalancing will have to be done (including re-making maps) to make things work close to well again.
01-15-2010 10:21 PM
FF Loremaster
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUnbeholden
Your argument is far to short. :p

You addressed perhaps only a small part of whats been said.

Its actually TF2 without crits, with grenades, bigger maps, :D

The exploit thats been turned into a game mechanic makes scouts obsolete.

Theres no reason to keep it really. I don't think that simply removing bunny hopping will turn the game into TF2 without crits.... you can't really be serous. Its like your saying the bunny hopping is the only real thing that makes TFC different TF2. There are many things.
Length of argument has little to do with the value of it.

I don't need to address every point you make when it all relies on the understanding that BHop is bad.

Scouts are far from obsolete. Read Squeeks post as to why this is not the case.

Removing BHop does the following to the game.

1. Slows the game down.

2. Puts emphasis on the DM'ng instead of movement AND DM'ng.

3. ACTUALLY makes classes like the scout and medic far more redundant.

So, lets think about what makes TF2 different from TFC. Well, there are no grenades. That's a major one. So scouts would still have concs. That's a good thing. Do you know what makes the conc good inside of bases? BHopping. This is what makes the scout (and medic) a powerhouse.

What else is there? Well, TF2 puts more emphasis on DM and less emphasis on movement while DM'ng. Removing BHop just so happens to put the emphasis on the DM'ng. When it becomes harder for the scout to simply move past a defender without using a conc, what weaponry is he going to rely on to destroy his enemy?

Oh, that's right, he doesn't have anything to handle the enemy other than his movement.

In order to balance this you'll have to retool the scout to be good at DM'ng by giving him a powerful weapon since the game now revolves nearly 100% on the DM.

So, what use is a medic without BHopping? Do you propose that he heals his team mates instead of going for flags? Do you actually think that a medic who does not have the ability to BHop is going to get past any other class with any sort of reliability?

I don't really understand your logic and I assumed the simple comment that it would turn the game in to TF2 without crits would be understood as that's exactly what it would be.

ETA: Difficulty to get in to a game is not an argument. DOTA is an incredibly popular game and it has far more difficult to get in to than FF/TFC.
01-16-2010 01:38 AM
Banned
 
Difficulty adjusting to a game is a valid argument when a lot of people argue that the fan-base is dying or needs to be upped, as the OP was doing.
01-16-2010 02:34 AM
FF Loremaster
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
Difficulty adjusting to a game is a valid argument when a lot of people argue that the fan-base is dying or needs to be upped, as the OP was doing.
No it isn't, that just means that this flavor of gaming is dying out. All you do by changing a major mechanic is alienate those who do find this game enjoyable.

People don't stick around and play this game because the majority of them don't like this type of game.

FF could be made in to a CoD clone and get tons of players.
01-16-2010 03:33 AM
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
People don't stick around and play this game because the majority of them don't like this type of game.
Why's that? Almost all of the fallen players whom I have spoken with cite artificial difficulty. :)
01-16-2010 04:58 AM
FF Loremaster
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
Why's that? Almost all of the fallen players whom I have spoken with cite artificial difficulty. :)
What? Why is it that people aren't in to this kind of game anymore? For the same reason Disco isn't as popular as it was during the 70's.

And what is artificial difficulty? Could you explain how something can be artificially difficult? Is that like saying that it's proxy-difficult? I don't get it.
01-18-2010 06:01 PM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
Length of argument has little to do with the value of it.
It didn't have much value in it either.
until now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge

I don't need to address every point you make when it all relies on the understanding that BHop is bad.

Scouts are far from obsolete. Read Squeeks post as to why this is not the case.

Removing BHop does the following to the game.

1. Slows the game down.

2. Puts emphasis on the DM'ng instead of movement AND DM'ng.

3. ACTUALLY makes classes like the scout and medic far more redundant.

So, lets think about what makes TF2 different from TFC. Well, there are no grenades. That's a major one. So scouts would still have concs. That's a good thing. Do you know what makes the conc good inside of bases? BHopping. This is what makes the scout (and medic) a powerhouse.
Interesting. I didn't know that you where so attached to bunny hopping (which it now seems quite obvious to me). You can tweak the scout to be "less slowed down" by getting hit by bullets. or better yet increase his speed to make up for it. (or perhaps make it so he is the only class that can bunny hop like Bridget suggested.)

Or to appease both sides of fence why not add a feature to enable/disable bunnyhopping when creating a server?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
What else is there? Well, TF2 puts more emphasis on DM and less emphasis on movement while DM'ng. Removing BHop just so happens to put the emphasis on the DM'ng. When it becomes harder for the scout to simply move past a defender without using a conc, what weaponry is he going to rely on to destroy his enemy?

Oh, that's right, he doesn't have anything to handle the enemy other than his movement.

In order to balance this you'll have to retool the scout to be good at DM'ng by giving him a powerful weapon since the game now revolves nearly 100% on the DM.
not necessarily. see above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
So, lets think about what makes TF2 different from TFC. Well, there are no grenades. That's a major one. So scouts would still have concs. That's a good thing. Do you know what makes the conc good inside of bases? BHopping. This is what makes the scout (and medic) a powerhouse.

So, what use is a medic without BHopping? Do you propose that he heals his team mates instead of going for flags? Do you actually think that a medic who does not have the ability to BHop is going to get past any other class with any sort of reliability?
Medic should do what he was always designed to do... heal (heavy is the only 'true' powerhouse)

Lots of things can increase a medics usefulness at the same time separate it from the TF2 community (to combat your statement that FF is TF2 without crits but with Bunnyhopping.) Medics already provide a irreplaceable benefit to the team.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
I don't really understand your logic and I assumed the simple comment that it would turn the game in to TF2 without crits would be understood as that's exactly what it would be.

ETA: Difficulty to get in to a game is not an argument. DOTA is an incredibly popular game and it has far more difficult to get in to than FF/TFC.

My logic is that of what it has always been. Make FF more popular (and not adhere to a minority) and make it more friendly to newer players, at the same time have things that make it unique and provide a different experience to that of TF2.

is my logic so far fetched? so difficult to comprehend. I must be a alien...
01-19-2010 08:16 AM
 
After reading around here, it seem very clear that Bunny Hopping is the most contentious of topics. I personally think having it optional (based on a server-side CVAR) is the way to go. That way, people who want to setup and run a server that allows it (probably by default, continuing the current setup), can continue to do so. People who want to setup and run a server that has it disabled (such as myself) would also be free to do so.

I played around with FF when it first came out, and was impressed by many things (the maps, 'nades, the more TFC-like class setup, etc.) - some features of it I like more than how TF2 does things. However, for those of us who don't like bunny-hopping, it seems to me to make the game movement more UT-like (which I don't care for) as opposed to HL-like. It has driven me 100% to TF2 instead by default. Since I can't setup my server to disable the BHop, I've just fallen into running other less-interesting games instead. If I can't get a FF server configured the way I want, maybe I'll try to find a way to at least run FF maps on TF2 instead.

I'm not here to BHop-bash, I understand there are many people who really like it, but I don't understand the problem with making it optional? - other than the fear that people who like BHop are paranoid that they would a small minority and consequently won't be able to find any servers that continue to allow it? (which I don't think would be turn-out to the case anyway).
01-19-2010 10:25 AM
AKA LittleAndroidMan
 
What's wrong with bunny-hopping?
01-19-2010 11:06 AM
Banned
 
Quote:
I personally think having it optional (based on a server-side CVAR) is the way to go.
There should be a workaround to disabling bhop. One server I played on had it disabled, where every third hop stopped you. I'm not sure what you need to disable it, though, whether it's just some server commands or a plugin.
01-19-2010 04:33 PM
 
Drippy's 2fort in TFC had a anti-bhop system, where if you were above x speed in the middle of your jump, you'd get slowed down.

Just about everybody fucking hated it. It could mess with rjumps/pipe jumps, strafe jumps if you're trying to save time by jumping across a gap...and it's just a pain to 'freeze' for a split second midair every time you jump.
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