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Respawn Times Issue Tools
issueid=263 01-24-2010 11:55 PM
Banned
Respawn Times

I can understand why people like instant respawn, because they can get right back into the action and keep going. I think, however, there is a downside to the instant respawn because you don't feel like you earn anything, and you're less likely to value your 'life', and you ignore opportunity to learn from your mistakes. What do I mean?

When you kill someone in Fortress Forever, it usually means you only delayed them by a few seconds. A kill doesn't feel as sufficient as you'd like. In some other games (take a guess?) when I kill someone I know for sure I won't be seeing him for a while. Likewise, you're less likely to play at your maximum capacity because you can 'just get another life instantly' when you die. Finally, you are less likely to learn because of this.

If you keep making a mistake over and over that is not apparent, then you are going to most likely keep making that mistake because you are not really punished with it with the instant respawn system. In other games, if you make a mistake: 1. You realize that in order to avoid having to wait a quarter or half a minute to get another chance, you'd best not make that mistake again and 2. You have some time to contemplate on any mistakes and think about new approaches.

There's also 'expiration' where the instant respawns fatigues you. This, I imagine, is common in competitive games where you're expected to pick yourself up immediately and resume play. Things are best enjoyed smoothly progressive and in moderation than done quickly and under some level of pressure or stress. Right?

So! RESPAWN TIMES! Do you think they're needed in Fortress Forever? If not needed, would you presume them to be a nice addition? Perhaps you think I'm goddamn crazy and should go back to TF2. Vote, comment, etc.
Issue Details
Issue Type Feature
Project Fortress Forever
Category General Game
Status Suggested
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version Undefined
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 0
Votes against this feature 16
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

01-25-2010 12:17 AM
UI Designer
Front-End Developer
 
So basically you want to turn a fast paced game into a slow paced game?

No, now go stab your self in the face.
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01-25-2010 12:23 AM
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricey
So basically you want to turn a fast paced game into a slow paced game?
Totally, because that's the conspiracy behind every suggestion, right?
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01-25-2010 12:28 AM
 
I would suggest FF does implement 'configurable respawn timers' in the sense that the map maker can place the respawns as near or far from the main engagement areas as he thinks makes sense. Casbah is one example where a de-facto respawn delay of 10-20 seconds is built into the map. I think it adds an extra tactical element to the game that you can actually choose to reduce this delay when it makes sense, for example by weapon jumping to get back to the action more quickly.

Bad map design can lead to this being a big negative - think 2morfort - where a dispatched opponent is back in place within seconds; but when it's done right, it provides a really fun experience of total action. The very best maps have just enough delay to let players get things done, while hiding the fact that there's a delay at all: 2fort and openfire are good examples.

Maybe it's a preference, but I strongly dislike the respawn timer aspect of TF2 and especially CS. True, it probably eventually works to strongly motivate you not to die, but I go nuts eating my liver in powerless spec while the enemy makes off with the flag. About the best rationalization I can come up with is that the pleasure of putting your opponent into that extremely frustrating situation is its own reward, lol.
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01-25-2010 01:54 AM
 
See also ff_tiger.
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01-25-2010 02:23 AM
AKA LittleAndroidMan
 
See also: Lua.
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01-25-2010 07:27 AM
 
ricey hit it tbh...respawn timers are just going to make the game slow down too much. But, as others said, we as mappers can put in similar delays by simply adding bigger respawns (or by placing them futher away from the action). Even simple things like a drop down that takes a few seconds, adds a built in delay that people don't even notice (generally).
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01-25-2010 01:07 PM
 
i'm not going to go into much detail, as this is something complex that i've tried and failed to explain to certain ppl many times over the years, but basically FF relies very heavily on good map design (something which all the pros and cons of are actually not that obvious). there are certain fundamental criteria that all maps should try to satisfy as fully as possibly in situations that might typically be expected to arise from players performing reasonably sensible actions. these are not about personal taste or what maps anyone likes or doesn't like playing, but rather basic criteria that should be satisfied as fully as possible in order to produce "solid gameplay", and which (with good design) can be essentially independent from the type of gameplay that a map offers (for which there are no strictly right or wrong ways but rather purely player preference).

some of us have been trying to put these fundamental criteria into words recently so that we can hopefully stand a chance of successfully explaining them and their relative importances to most ppl, and have a high level self-contained guide to refer to when trying to explain how a specific map excessively violates them (and so if possible lead to some options as to how that map might be improved in that regard). we're not there yet, but hopefully will be soonish.

anyway, one of these high level criteria is what i've personally been calling "fair positive expected reward for all reasonably sensible actions". the reward for killing a player is a part of this, and is probably the most common example of this criterion being excessively violated. respawn timers are a very simple way to force a positive reward for killing a player without the need for good map design, but come at the cost of breaking the continuous action. imo we should aim high and definitely not resort to respawn timers (which btw would obviously only "solve" just this one part of one of this one criteria, so certainly does not remove the high dependency on good design), but instead i think we do need to try our best to raise awareness of ALL these fundamental criteria among anyone interested in making good maps for FF, as doing so is a lot more complex than it might appear and there are a fair few currently played maps that are too far from "ideal" in this regard.
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01-30-2010 10:52 PM
Ambassador of Everything.
 
You repeat a mistake, you're less bound to do it again. Fast respawn just makes the person realize that he's doing something wrong faster through repetition.

The only thing I'd get is livid when I have to wait 30 seconds just to get back into the game on TF2. No lesson learned.
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