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AC Slowdown Issue Tools
issueid=292 05-16-2010 10:28 PM
AaaaaaaTATATATATATATATA!
AC Slowdown

I've been playing some HWGuy a bit more in the last couple days, and just had to go up against a Scout/Medic rush on an AvD map. The defense was pretty good, but I felt that the AC was lacking, not just in aerial slowdown but also in hampering the movement of running Scouts.

I do know that discussion has been going around that the AC should do more damage or be more accurate, or cause more slow on aerial people, but I feel that the HWGuy needs to slow runners more effectively as well.

Do you think increased aerial slowdown + minor hamstring effect on ground targets would be a good idea?
Issue Details
Issue Type Feature
Project Fortress Forever
Category Classes (Scout/Engineer/etc)
Status Rejected
Priority 6
Suggested Version Undefined
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 3
Votes against this feature 3
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

05-17-2010 08:51 PM
 
Personally my opinion is that we should keep with FF's theme of a fast paced game.

The slow down effect is just annoying for the scouts and medics, it's not super effective, and the AC sucks soo much that the slow down effect would need to be increased considerabley before it was actually usefull. But increasing it more would just piss scouts off making it not fun for them.

Keeping with the theme of speed in FF, the AC should have no wind up. That's the first issue for the gun. By the time the HW sees a zooming scout, starts winding up then starts firing, the scout is pretty much out of his site. So the HW has to be permanently firing his gun.

But with that said, I haven't seen a single HW actually lock his an area down. We pick the HW for areas that are wide open has lots of visibility infront of him to give him enough time to make his kill, but even permanently keeping his gun firing, and the current slow down, he still can't lock his area down.

A good solly can lock his area down, but a HW can't.

The HW needs to be more devestating at medium range. To counteract a change to his increase in medium ranged killing, his aim should need to be better, so to me his medium ranged cone should be more focused, but more lethal.

This slow down stuff is annoying and goes against one of FF's defining feature. Unless they plan to change one of FF's core defining features and slow the game down, the gun slowing down people is a bass ackwards solution.

It should be scaled up to handle the speed of the game, not modified to slow the game down.
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05-18-2010 12:51 PM
sKeeD
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
Personally my opinion is that we should keep with FF's theme of a fast paced game.

The slow down effect is just annoying for the scouts and medics, it's not super effective, and the AC sucks soo much that the slow down effect would need to be increased considerabley before it was actually usefull. But increasing it more would just piss scouts off making it not fun for them.

Keeping with the theme of speed in FF, the AC should have no wind up. That's the first issue for the gun. By the time the HW sees a zooming scout, starts winding up then starts firing, the scout is pretty much out of his site. So the HW has to be permanently firing his gun.

But with that said, I haven't seen a single HW actually lock his an area down. We pick the HW for areas that are wide open has lots of visibility infront of him to give him enough time to make his kill, but even permanently keeping his gun firing, and the current slow down, he still can't lock his area down.

A good solly can lock his area down, but a HW can't.

The HW needs to be more devestating at medium range. To counteract a change to his increase in medium ranged killing, his aim should need to be better, so to me his medium ranged cone should be more focused, but more lethal.

This slow down stuff is annoying and goes against one of FF's defining feature. Unless they plan to change one of FF's core defining features and slow the game down, the gun slowing down people is a bass ackwards solution.

It should be scaled up to handle the speed of the game, not modified to slow the game down.
100% agree
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07-26-2010 01:58 PM
I like Ceyx
 
i agree with hammock/reaper..

ive always thought the ac's cone was a little too big. I dont want it to be a laser, but slightly smaller cone, slightly more powerful bullets would make the HW more fun to play and still keep it fun for offense... the slowdown is perfect imo - just enough to annoy the offense when playin vs a good HW
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07-26-2010 04:08 PM
Nade Whore
 
Yes fully agreed! The heavy should be able to mow down something quickly from medium to short distances, but I think the pushback the AC can pretty easily cancel out a scout or medic's conc with just a few bullets.
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07-26-2010 06:48 PM
Banned
 
There is a weapon in Team Fortress 2 like this. It belongs to the Heavy. It is easily the worst unlock they have added to the game. So many people dislike going up against it, because it's far too easy to add a slow effect to weapons, especially ones like the assault cannon. From experience, I am going to say no.

The Heavy in Fortress Forever, in my opinion, sucks because the AC's spread is too tight. It's optimal for medium ranges, which makes it difficult to land hits at close range where the Heavy is expected to do best. Even if you're dead accurate with the weapon at close range, its damage is so pathetic. I've had Scouts circle strafe me while taking shots like they were nothing. It takes too long to kill enemies as a Heavy.

I think the fix is increasing damage and breaking up spread. The broken spread makes him a weakening class at medium range and a monster at close range. The damage is to ensure he does do well at close range. Right now, he does weaken at medium range, but it's not a consequence of spread but a consequence of bad damage. That bad damage ends up hurting the class where it should be doing its best, at close range.
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07-27-2010 07:53 AM
Gets tickled by FF
 
Make heavy any more powerful and people won't want to play against me on destroy. Muahahahaha!!

I think he could loose some more of his range, which to me means making the cone wider, not smaller. If it was smaller then he'd be better at range than he is already and no one would have a chance cause you'll start stripping from a much further distance. So you need bullets to dispurse over distance thus making the cone wider.

I understand it might make it hard to hit closer targets having a narrower cone but if you make it more powerful too then I don't think it will and you'll just have some badass gun that owns all - all the time. I guess I wouldn't mind :p but I feel he's already pretty powerful when playing him.

Just my oppinion on the matter (not staff judgement)

*edit* sorry that was pretty poorly written
Reply
07-27-2010 08:59 PM
I like Ceyx
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo
Make heavy any more powerful and people won't want to play against me on destroy. Muahahahaha!!

I think he could loose some more of his range, which to me means making the cone wider, not smaller. If it was smaller then he'd be better at range than he is already and no one would have a chance cause you'll start stripping from a much further distance. So you need bullets to dispurse over distance thus making the cone wider.

I understand it might make it hard to hit closer targets having a narrower cone but if you make it more powerful too then I don't think it will and you'll just have some badass gun that owns all - all the time. I guess I wouldn't mind :p but I feel he's already pretty powerful when playing him.

Just my oppinion on the matter (not staff judgement)

*edit* sorry that was pretty poorly written
Yea, HW is pretty balanced the way it is.. I vote leave it alone.
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07-27-2010 09:02 PM
WhenNailGrenWillOut?
 
Whenever a medic runs up to me and nails my shit to the ground I go down easily. But when I try the same thing I always die. Tell me your secrets,secret HW club.
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07-27-2010 10:07 PM
Gets tickled by FF
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moosh
Whenever a medic runs up to me and nails my shit to the ground I go down easily. But when I try the same thing I always die. Tell me your secrets,secret HW club.
AIM + FIRE
Reply
07-28-2010 03:56 AM
Stuff Do-er
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moosh
Whenever a medic runs up to me and nails my shit to the ground I go down easily. But when I try the same thing I always die. Tell me your secrets,secret HW club.
This is exactly how I feel. :(
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07-28-2010 01:40 PM
I like Ceyx
 
Im a decent HW...

My tips are this:

Increase your sensitivity as HW. Move it up a half a point or even a point.

The trick is to compensate for the lag just a bit since FF is so fast paced. In my experiences, you want to be slightly ahead of your target while you're shooting at them when they're doing circles around you..
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08-03-2010 08:18 PM
 
getting rid of the wind up time would solve the problem with the hwguy being weak, also if a scout is running around you, can't you just switch to the supershotgun and move around?
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08-05-2010 06:03 AM
zE zE is offline
Pew pew ze beams
 
I think Ive seen complains about all classes cept the one that is overpowered -> solly uber rocket radius explosion but meh
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08-05-2010 10:26 AM
Banned
 
[WRONG ANSWER BUZZER]
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08-08-2010 11:21 AM
 
The HW's aerial slowdown was balanced and designed in line with the other defensive classes - demoman and soldier are good at hitting scouts on the ground, and HW and sentries are better at hitting scouts in the air. Combine the classes for the best combination :)
Reply
08-09-2010 07:32 PM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
The slow down effect is just annoying for the scouts and medics, it's not super effective, and the AC sucks soo much that the slow down effect would need to be increased considerabley before it was actually usefull. But increasing it more would just piss scouts off making it not fun for them.
I think Bridget said it before, but this is basically the result of a problem being solved with a new problem. Here's the road I've seen to the slowdowns:

Problem 1: O gets more speed abilities + All units move faster + ng gets nerfed leads to
Problem 2: O stomping all over D, which leads to
Problem 3: introduced slowdown makes the game less fun, and only makes a minor difference

I don't like the slowdown either, it's a nuisance more than something that really fixes the balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
The broken spread makes him a weakening class at medium range and a monster at close range.
Well keep it in perspective, I still find his close-up damage a tad weak in comparison to earlier versions. He easily had more dropping power at close range in 2.0, 1.0, and TFC. He's only a monster in the sense that the rest of him has been weakened more so that the close-up damage hasn't been hit quite as badly.
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