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Pyro rebalancing Issue Tools
issueid=328 12-14-2010 08:11 PM
Flamer of Worlds
Pyro rebalancing
Basically fixing the unbalanced pyro that people keep bitching about. Reduce the Flame Thrower damage.

In all honesty, I've seen people complain too much about it. In pubs or otherwise.

I've played this game a lot over the past few years and I liked it a lot. It still crops up to me that people are saying the pyro is overpowered, and I agree it actually is in most cases. (only time it isn't is when you're NOT in their face)

The damage spam doesn't come from the tier damage from my experience, it comes from the Flame Thrower. That being said just tweek the Flame Thrower damage and that should allow for less of a hassle when dealing with them.

Something like 4-8 damage/missile; 20-40/second, provided all of them hit (0.2s fire rate) aught to do the trick (at the moment it does 16/missile; 80/second... provided everything hits). Giving an example from experience: It takes me about 10-15 seconds with a level 2-3 burn give or take with no water around to kill a heavy, if I don't die. (But left with A LOT less health)

-- The above time frames are estimations, damage was pulled from the Wiki, and the values I suggested are pulled out of my ass.

It's hard to say in the heat of combat and there are WAY too many factors to put in there. Heath/armor, whether the heavy kills the pyro or not, mouse sensitivity (values CAN exceed 20.0, I tested that myself), FPS on both ends, ping, etc.


Reducing the damage in the way I suggest will likely increase that time to about 15-25 seconds with a level 2-3 burn. I'm giving a estimate, it's hard to say considering the variables; how much health/armor the Pyro/Heavy has, tier level, whether the heavy kills the Pyro or not.

At least halving the damage should do enough to allow players to survive long enough to kill them and you should get less complaints from players about it...

This should encourage more skill-based game play among players who like using this class.

TL;DR: Instead of reducing the tier damage, reduce the flame thrower damage on this overpowered class. (You half-way did it with the IC getting its damage cut down a little)
Issue Details
Issue Type Feature
Project Fortress Forever
Category Classes (Scout/Engineer/etc)
Status Suggested
Priority 5 - Medium
Suggested Version Undefined
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 2
Votes against this feature 1
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

12-15-2010 03:50 AM
 
I don't know, I don't often lay into people with the flame thrower. It's usually enough to light them up and run away for a few seconds, and repeat if necessary. With scouts it's stupidly easy. Pop an IC rocket near them and squirt them once with flames as they go by and they're as good as dead. Maybe you saw me doing this on o-t the other night.

I'd say if anything, burn duration should be decreased.
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12-15-2010 03:59 AM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl
I don't know, I don't often lay into people with the flame thrower. It's usually enough to light them up and run away for a few seconds, and repeat if necessary. With scouts it's stupidly easy. Pop an IC rocket near them and squirt them once with flames as they go by and they're as good as dead. Maybe you saw me doing this on o-t the other night.
Isn't that the same with any class against the scout though. The Soldier can hit the scout with a rocket, shotgun him, and the Scout is dead.
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12-15-2010 12:16 PM
Flamer of Worlds
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl
I don't know, I don't often lay into people with the flame thrower. It's usually enough to light them up and run away for a few seconds, and repeat if necessary. With scouts it's stupidly easy. Pop an IC rocket near them and squirt them once with flames as they go by and they're as good as dead. Maybe you saw me doing this on o-t the other night.

I'd say if anything, burn duration should be decreased.
Nah, the burn duration is fine as it is in my experience. If I die with the heavy still having around 75-80 health and 250+ armor he'll survive a level 3 burn easy the way it is now. Solly too if he/she manages to grab a bag that restores a portion of their armor & health.

I have a tendency to circle my victims and spam the flames when I kill an enemy, Xiax and a few others that play on O-T can attest to that.

Different burn levels and durations couldn't be half bad. But that still doesn't come back to my original suggestion, it's 1 part of the problem. The FT has a 0.2 second delay between firing a new missile. (5/second)

Most players, especially myself use it to keep on the hurt at close range. Everyone has a different play-style, it depends on the individual.

Just testing it in the beta may not be all to bad, just tweek the values and see what spits out.

The difference is a few seconds of survival time. At least with the tweek, the pyro has a guaranteed chance of dying if he/she gets up in the face of a heavy, I promise you that... a good heavy tends to severely weaken me the way it is now.

Usually it's all about teamwork, but also about speed. If players would work together I.E. a medic heals their companions out in the field, an engineer builds a dispenser at the front of the enemy base to provide armor and ammo, etc. Defense and Offense could be offset a little bit more.

Usually it's the more organized team that wins the round with or with out the grenade spam. It's a proven fact. A couple of days ago on Openfire and hell even on rock2 the defense was well organized, but so was the enemy offense. Player A was the sacrificial lamb and Player B would grab it after Player A died and then he would slip out of the base.

While the defense I was on had a heavy, engineer (myself, blew up player A & B several times with my dispenser), and a few other classes while the rest of my team went on offense. Only 2-4 players working in sync is enough for offense.

Changing the game the way it is now, removing grenades, simplifying values, reducing values. It doesn't sit well with me because then it will throw off that intricate balance.

Why do you think the original games had Team Fortress in them?
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12-15-2010 05:05 PM
 
The pyro is not anywhere near OP in my opinion. While special guys like ChickenP and Gwar can be effective with it in unsuspecting pub play (on certain maps,) as a defender I find a good scout/medic/soldier/demo more intimidating. Effectiveness against concing classes on offense is nearly nil.

Without stopping power (rockets, pipes, and somewhat more anemically: hw and sentry) or speed (concs,) he is not a prime contributor on defense or offense.

Some random change suggestions to forestall boredom:

- Remove or greatly curtail flame 'blindness', so you can tell you're on fire, but your FOV is not obscured (a UI issue). See TF2
- Significantly increase napalm grenade explosion damage, limit to 1 on spawn, 2 max. These should work identically to mirvs, with the difference being incendiery bomblets, instead of explosive bomblets. Napalm bomblets seem to have no effect if you jump over them or even get near them - they should provide better area denial.
- Significantly extend the range of the flamethrower flames, but slow them down. Not sure how this would play, but I think it would be a fun mechanic and could add some mini-tactical play to the FT.
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12-23-2010 06:40 AM
I like Ceyx
 
i mulched a decent pyro the other day and really have only one complaint with it, which i think may be a bug.

yeah it sucks getting raped by a pyro because we all have this shit in the back of our heads saying "NEWB" when yeah it requires different skills than a scout/medic/soldier but tbh a good pyro can do some serious fuckin justice for their team.(again depending on how many players there are in the mix)

my qualm with the pyro is that if you get on fire with a lvl 3, it's death unless you're able to immediately find a couple resupply bags or happen to have a medic around(never). id be happy to test this with somebody in a mulch situation. the ticks that deal damage when on fire are way too harsh and not frequent enough. contradiction? maybe.

solution: reduce the damage & increase the frequency of ticks and i think we have a winner.(at least on level 3 damage. i go from 80 health to 0 health in a single tick... that's too much when i only have 100 max. you figure the burn from the flamethrower + the grenade + the napalm puts me AT THE VERY MAXIMUM like 80 health and some armor. but more typically around 40-60 health and some armor.

i really think its bugged. please look into this.

also get rid of the bouncing screen affect which fucks up aim. as if having a burning fire on your screen and a DoT on you + a pyro shooting flames at you isnt enough, you're screen has to bounce.... no thanks.
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