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Old 01-12-2012, 12:10 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynian View Post
The game is -incredibly- different than TFC, if you compare the two side by side.

...
So... some things you'd want to see changed from TFC (sniper, pyro?, maybe gren explosion radius although it wasn't mentioned) and some things you'd want to see changed back to be more similar to TFC. There's no possible way for us to win here, as there are people with the exact opposite opinion as you (remove bunnyhopping and keep sniper the same, for example).

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Demos are a lot more spammy in FF, which is kinda disheartening for an offensive player. There's almost no delay between firing a pipe and detting it, and the short blue fuse makes spamming against enemies even better. Add into the fact that killing a demo takes him out of the picture for a lot less time than in TFC, AND you're giving him back his grens...even though killing the demo is often the only way to get the flag out, sometimes it just feels like you're shooting yourself in the foot by doing so.
How is any of this true?

1) Demo pipe det delay, as far as I know, is exactly the same in TFC and FF. You're going to have to explain that one. I even loaded TFC recently to test this, and detting pipes feels exactly the same as it does in FF.
2) Blue pipe spam is way less effective because of the shortened fuse. There's hardly any use of spamming a blue unless you know someone is there, as it's harder to randomly catch someone in the smaller window (with a longer fuse, it has a lot more potential to reward random spam [think of spamming blues at phantom FD from button; with a short fuse, it's not all that worth it, but with a long fuse it'd probably be much more useful])
3) Killing the demo takes him out of the picture for a lot less time? You're going to need to explain that as well.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:25 AM   #22
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It's not that I want to see a complete TFC remake. That won't happen, this is a different game - and that's what I'm saying. I was referring to how Catz said she felt FF was too different from TFC, then a bunch of people asked how.

As for demos -

1) I dunno, it feels as though if someone's trying to juke me in FF, I can just m1, m2, m1, m2, m1, m2 a bunch faster than I could in TFC. I'd have to run tests, but it just feels faster. Other people have said this to me as well.

2) Blues don't need to be a direct hit in FF (nor in TFC, true) to effectively kill someone. Getting glanced by one will often stop you dead in your tracks, meaning any other spam headed your way is unavoidable. Also, you can spam an enclosed flag area or choke, such as on destroy or ofire, to react almost instantly to an incoming enemy. Because they explode so quickly, you can create a field of spam on the flag or other small area just as the scout is reaching it, instead of TFC where you had to pre-emptively fire blues so that they would explode on the scout in ~2-3 seconds (something around there).

3) It's so easy to start a 150% speed bhop in FF. As soon as the demo respawns, he charges back towards the flagroom at top speed, easily running around corners without worrying about collisions. Sure, player skill is something to account for here - but it's a problem when any class can aircontrol perfectly, at max speed, within half a second of spawning.
Think of how long a demo would be away from the flag on, say, ksour (and compare it to ksour_classic in FF, since that's a bit more proportionally accurate). It would usually take me around 3-5 more seconds in TFC to run the same amount of distance than in FF. The same is true of just about every class - they get places faster. Partial blame on the maps, but also the physics seem to have a great deal to do with it.

I don't mind being able to strafe-jump into a near-perfect bhop, but...something feels wrong when it's so easy to do that it becomes standard, at practically all levels of play (yes, a lot of pub players do this, even if some don't), and has such a huge impact on the game.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:40 AM   #23
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I think I came at this the wrong way. I appreciate people pointing out differences between FF and TFC. But, I'd like to also know what specifically you think should be changed to make it more similar to what you'd want. For example, rocket speed is different in FF than it is in TFC. This is something that was decided long, long before I was involved with FF and it's just sort of become seemingly set in stone. What would change about FF if it were put back to TFC speed? Would that change be good or bad?

But, for the demo stuff:
1) What should be changed to fix this? Increase the det delay? What if that makes it longer than it was in TFC? It seems like more information is needed here to make any decision (knowing the actual differences, if any, rather than perceived differences)

2) On-flag spam with blues is a good point, but it's still a bit different than truly random spam. Blue pipes in general are a conundrum that I can't particularly figure out.

3) Seems like more information is needed here as well. Is it actually harder to reach max speed in one strafe in TFC? If so, why? It'd be nice to get a speedometer plugin for TFC or use specific unit-sized gaps and test it out. Soft collisions seem like a pretty minor thing with regards to this, unless you think that demos would collide with teammates for many seconds per respawn. Also, your point about TFC ksour vs ksour_classic actually works against you. ff_ksour_classic has the defensive (and offensive) spawn points moved up considerably, while ff_ksour has the original TFC spawn points.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:53 AM   #24
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Yeah, the issue is a lot of FF's core mechanics have become so ingrained in people's minds that changing any of them might cause a repeat of the current "every server runs a different patch" dilemma.

FF rockets are fine at the speed they are. The RPG still requires decent aim, can't be spammed to quite an effect (although I think the firing interval is a bit fast, which is funny since I complained about the radius nerfs earlier), and usually can't be expected to completely lock down an area for several seconds like 6 blues+mirv+6 more blues can.

For demos...it's so hard to say, really. Any change would completely fuck with the way demo is played. I think the best thing to do would be, again, increase the firing interval for his pipes (.05s-.1s?) as well as slightly increase the time between firing a greyellow and detting it (thinking .1s-.2s more?).

Speed...it's so hard to express in exact numbers here. All I can really say is that, for most maps, defense will come back from death almost instantly, whereas in TFC it took a little while. Clearly, we need someone to port maps like prodigal_r, so we can see what FF gameplay could be like with an enforced longer respawn time. That, and prodigal was an amazing map.
(or we could play tiger)

Opinions, man. Everyone's got different ones. We need more input.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:23 AM   #25
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Alright, I installed a speedometer plugin locally and did some testing. I can easily get to ~600 speed in a single strafe jump as a scout in TFC. This is directly comparable to FF (it's actually harder to get to ~600 speed in a single jump in FF than in TFC imo). The difference is that in TFC, the brick wall effect can mess up your speed quite a bit. But, in a single jump, you can actually get to a higher speed in TFC than you can currently in FF. sv_airaccelerate is set to 10 in both FF and TFC, by the way (though engine differences could make this comparison obsolete).

Detting pipes works exactly the same. I can easily do the det pipes -> shoot a pipe -> det it -> shoot a pipe -> det it thing in TFC, and I'm the worst demo ever. The only difference I can find between the detting is that in TFC there is a seemingly random delay added when you shoot a pipe and try to det it before the det delay is over. Sometimes its quite long (if you spam det afterwards), and sometimes it dets fairly shortly after (same thing, spamming det afterwards). That doesn't seem like something worth recreating, but it might be okay to increase the re-det delay in FF if you try to det before the delay is actually over. I also remember something about reloading + detting in TFC, but a good TFC demo could probably give more insight about that.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:34 AM   #26
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Quote:
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and I'm the worst demo ever.
Bullshit, you've clearly never seen me demo in a pickup
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Old 01-12-2012, 03:06 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oaties View Post
Bullshit, you've clearly never seen me demo in a pickup
You, along with absolutely everyone else, have never seen me demo in a pickup. There's a reason for that.
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
You, along with absolutely everyone else, have never seen me demo in a pickup. There's a reason for that.
I've seen you play demo though
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Old 01-20-2012, 10:53 PM   #29
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Late getting back and sorry bout that. Didnt realize folks would ask why I said what I said.

First, I am an old gal. Some of you may forget that but yes... I be old. I am 46 yrs old. What does this mean in terms of games? This means we have limited time (kids in house) and we rarely have the patience to learn new tricks of the trade when there are other things trying to take up the hard drive that otherwise called our BRAIN.

So, when you have been playing tfc since '99 and were good at it, trying to relearn a new game is rather tedious and... well... not fun. I dont have the time or inclination to start over. Hence why I dont play tf2.

And while a lot of the names are the same between tfc and ff, please face it guys, it IS a different game. It is faster movement of all the players, more flying around, the health and hits are way different, and it is less ... well... teamwork. You will argue against me and say I havent given it a chance, but dont bother. It IS too far different from what I am used to in tfc. Dont believe me? Go play tfc for a few hours and see the difference for yourself.

Now I am not bashing you guys. Not at all. I am simply saying it is a DIFFERENT GAME. And while I support the forum community, I simply dont like the game itself. It is too different and I am too old to try to relearn a new game.

To be honest, I am more inclined to give "nuclear dawn" more time simply cuz it is closer in gameplay feel to tfc than what ff is.
(EDIT: A game I did voice over for btw! :shameless plug

Now regarding the bm comments.....

(Edit: Comments snipped for reasons that should be obvious)

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Old 01-21-2012, 12:18 AM   #30
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People still care about Black Mesa? I stopped caring when they announced that they were removing bunnyhop. Bye fast paced, skilled multiplayer.

http://forums.blackmesasource.com/sh...postcount=2122

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartel | Wolf View Post
2) In the Deathmatch Mod will you be able to strafe-jump (bunnyhop) as your using the Orange Engine (i believe)

No, you cannot bunnyhop.

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Old 01-21-2012, 02:28 AM   #31
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:04 PM   #32
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I really dont care if you are mad upset frustrated pissed obtuse or any other varied amount of emotions about the mod. I honestly have no emotions over what others feel about the 'wehn black massa out?!' behavior.

But someone asked me, so I answered. I know you took that to mean it was up for any additional ounce of ridicule you could throw on it (not that I care mind you), but I am pretty sure the original post has plenty of discussion left in it rather than the mod that you so obviously made a point of saying you dont care about.

where is my facepalm pic? oh wait... let me google it....
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:46 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatzEyes93 View Post
Late getting back and sorry bout that. Didnt realize folks would ask why I said what I said.

First, I am an old gal. Some of you may forget that but yes... I be old. I am 46 yrs old. What does this mean in terms of games? This means we have limited time (kids in house) and we rarely have the patience to learn new tricks of the trade when there are other things trying to take up the hard drive that otherwise called our BRAIN.

So, when you have been playing tfc since '99 and were good at it, trying to relearn a new game is rather tedious and... well... not fun. I dont have the time or inclination to start over. Hence why I dont play tf2.

And while a lot of the names are the same between tfc and ff, please face it guys, it IS a different game. It is faster movement of all the players, more flying around, the health and hits are way different, and it is less ... well... teamwork. You will argue against me and say I havent given it a chance, but dont bother. It IS too far different from what I am used to in tfc. Dont believe me? Go play tfc for a few hours and see the difference for yourself.
I appreciate you explaining your view. It's all rather intangible and based on feel rather than specific differences, though, which makes it hard to respond to. TFC was many, many, many, many different things to many people, and that is something that FF doesn't have the luxury of recreating in the confines of a small community. Rather, you see all facets of FF in a single server. In TFC, it was very possible to isolate yourself from the parts of TFC that you didn't like and act as though they weren't actually part of the game that we all were playing even though they very much were.

And, in response to you saying that FF is faster than TFC, I'll just leave this here:
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:16 AM   #34
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that video still rules after the 90th time
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:54 PM   #35
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Honestly FF was much easier for me to pick up on then TFC when i started playing it.


The thing about TFC i remember the most was having to use scripts every which way you went, but with ff it was like the scripts were hard coded into the game.


I enjoy the faster paced feel to FF, compared to TFC which feels clunky at best. I don't agree with every change made to FF, that took away from TFC but it is a different type of game to an extent like pointed out.


I also dislike having my beta testing application ignored and questions regarding the desire to help test this game (spy especially) ignored as well.


Can't help but feel like whatever spy changes were on the block for a possible 2.4 release, or 2.5 got put on hold or changed because of me and how i play. ( i don't mean to sound cocky)
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:59 PM   #36
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Drak are you still interested in beta testing or not anymore?

That may have been around the time I left US applications to the US-based devs. I later realised US applicants weren't getting dealt with very often so I just started accepting anyone who was interested and I knew would help or anyone who followed up their request (thus showed continued interest). I'm sorry that I may have missed yours (I know you followed it up).

If you're still interested then I'll push it through as soon as you tell me to. I have with two others who reposted on existing applications this week. But I'm not sure they've even been back to check yet...

Random FYI - I've been inactive as a Dev the last 6/7 months (got job, moved into flat, went travelling 2-n-half months) but will be back to business within the next month (waiting for phone line to be installed for internet).
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:48 PM   #37
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Welcome back Elmo
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:11 PM   #38
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Cheers
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:20 AM   #39
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Yes Elmo I'm still interested in beta testing.
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Old 01-28-2012, 09:01 AM   #40
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tits - I'm too hungover for this
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