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Old 03-25-2012, 09:17 PM   #1
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Ways to improve FF?

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Old 03-26-2012, 01:53 AM   #2
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There's a lot to respond to, so for now I'll just say nailgun will have a clip next patch (your post reminded me to finish it).
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:38 AM   #3
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Just a note, on emps - while dropped bags on the ground technically explode, they do 0 damage regardless of how much ammo is in them. It's worthless for the engineer to try to dropbag+emp an enemy. The best the engi can hope for is the enemy to accidentally pick them up again, but if he has an autodrop script, it's pointless.

If you're suggesting that you should be able to drop ammunition for guns that you use (such as dropping cells as a pyro)...maybe? I think that would be incredibly confusing, and make the emp even weaker.

Maybe use the incredibly out-dated tip system to warn newbies about EMPs after they get killed by one, though?

Also - yes yes yes PLEASE revert the bag change. It's stupid and hurt engineers, since they can't build, pick up a 200 cell bag from their last death, then continue to do shit. Also, you could take the TFC route and have it so when someone dies, 1 armor is turned into 1 cell. Repair the nearly dead fatty up to 250 armor then sshotty him to get full cells. It was an interesting mechanic for those that knew about it.

And for reasons other than engi, you could eventually starve a soldier/demo defense out of ammunition, making it so they need to restock in some way.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
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There's a lot to respond to, so for now I'll just say nailgun will have a clip next patch (your post reminded me to finish it).
It took me around an hour to write it. lol Sorry about the long-ass post, but needed to basically fit it into one. Read the particular section about the Nail Gren and the tweaks I think that may satisfy both sides. As for the nails going across the map, put a limitation on the distance for them?

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Just a note, on emps - while dropped bags on the ground technically explode, they do 0 damage regardless of how much ammo is in them. It's worthless for the engineer to try to dropbag+emp an enemy. The best the engi can hope for is the enemy to accidentally pick them up again, but if he has an autodrop script, it's pointless.

If you're suggesting that you should be able to drop ammunition for guns that you use (such as dropping cells as a pyro)...maybe? I think that would be incredibly confusing, and make the emp even weaker.
-- The second paragraph is what I was referring to.

That's why it should be set to the default "throw spare ammo" and maybe something like a percentage of all ammunition that is present should the player choose.

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Maybe use the incredibly out-dated tip system to warn newbies about EMPs after they get killed by one, though?
The tip system needs an overhaul at some point...

About EMPs I'd be thrilled if the bags did damage when they exploded, but with the sheer volume of corpses in some cases some players can get wtf pwned if they don't pay attention, that being said, it'd may be best if they don't do anything with the amount of damage the bags do (if at all).

Quote:
Also - yes yes yes PLEASE revert the bag change. It's stupid and hurt engineers, since they can't build, pick up a 200 cell bag from their last death, then continue to do shit. Also, you could take the TFC route and have it so when someone dies, 1 armor is turned into 1 cell. Repair the nearly dead fatty up to 250 armor then sshotty him to get full cells. It was an interesting mechanic for those that knew about it.

And for reasons other than engi, you could eventually starve a soldier/demo defense out of ammunition, making it so they need to restock in some way.
I'm glad we agree on that note. But also considering the general change I mentioned about dropping ammo, it may be best to have the threshold I mentioned.

What I thought would be an awesome but a stupid idea would be for a ragdoll to do damage to a player after colliding with them (if possible). Mind you this may piss off some players, it's why I left it out. If it does get put in (I doubt it), after the ragdoll comes to rest the first time, don't let it collide with players anymore.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:43 AM   #5
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Tip system has been updated, you can thank Neon for writing all the new stuff.
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:14 PM   #6
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Tip system has been updated, you can thank Neon for writing all the new stuff.
I know he did the post on it but did any of us devs act on it? If not then we need to raise a feature task with the thread referenced in the content
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:14 PM   #7
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As for the main post. Cant reply but there's a good few valid points which have been talked about before.
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:43 PM   #8
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I know he did the post on it but did any of us devs act on it? If not then we need to raise a feature task with the thread referenced in the content
It's up there now.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:32 PM   #9
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There's a lot to respond to, so for now I'll just say nailgun will have a clip next patch (your post reminded me to finish it).
why make the peashooter nailgun less effective?
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:37 PM   #10
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What is the point in giving the nail gun a clip? Seriously? Is it really that game breaking. Are sg's across FF cowering in fear of the freaking nail gun?
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:54 PM   #11
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What is the point in giving the nail gun a clip? Seriously? Is it really that game breaking. Are sg's across FF cowering in fear of the freaking nail gun?
Reloading in general is a simple and effective way to create depth. In the case of nailguns, specifically, it adds a bit of interaction as well due to the small window created when the nailgunner is reloading.
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:42 PM   #12
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It's just the tiny nailgun...
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
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It's up there now.
Thank you for that ricey.

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It's just the tiny nailgun...
Tiny nailgun that can spam 100 nails without stopping... the engineer's helpless with pounding on the sg till the scout or whatever stops spamming. I don't want to be stuck in a situation like that...
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:18 PM   #14
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Firstly let me say this - you have to bear in mind that we must balance for competitve and pub together. If you don't play competitively, then you aren't getting the full picture of FF's design. (the same is for competitive players who dont play pub).

Medkit used to be infinite damage. The damage it has now is much weaker than it was.

Crowbar is 30 damage, knife is 50. This damage not only can't kill you, but you automatically regenerate it back anyway. It obviously has to be higher to compensate. Bear in mind that a close range shotgun blast is 54 damage so its almost not worth using as it is. Plus with a medkit you have to switch weapon if you want to switch target. This isnt true of shotty or nailgun. I'm pretty sure you'd get more DPS using shotgun or nailgun and you can use them from any range. Maybe the argument is that "people who can't aim can do more damage with a medkit than they can with a shotgun". Well that seems fine to me. Players must judge their ability level (and their opponents dodge ability) and choose a weapon accordingly.. sounds a lot like depth!

HOWEVER. Some people do feel it's less fair getting a DOT. Those people have real problems with the pyro fire for the same reason. It's a shame because it's an interesting mechanic (different to all the direct damage stuff) and adds different playstyles to the game.

Engineer bags... anyone playing seriously won't drop any metal at all in their death bag pre-patch (and enemies will deliberately gather bags in your flag room anyway) and so for competitive gaming the metal was actually an increase on average. If you played with noobs who always dropped hundreds of metal because they don't know where their discard button is, well yes life was very easy as engineer, but it wasn't balanced. You get one noob on your team who doesnt discard, and hooray he's giving the enemy engineer lots of metal every run. Flame wars commence. Forcing everyone to discard all the time is not a good mechanic either. (people actually bound "discard" to their run button. Is it good design to encourage that?)

Also basing the engineer metal intake based on how many people die near him is a really bad idea. Also bags that have more than 50 metal in, and your teammates pick them up to "help you"... bad. SO much fail with the old system. We're testing much better methods of regulating the engineer metal flow over time in beta. HOWEVER. That said we could potentially raise the drop amount in bags slightly if the new changes don't come through next patch...

The reason pyros aren't used in pickups is because they are bad, not because they are OP. If you play pyro you're preventing your team from winning. HOWEVER i did suggest nerfing them slightly since they are only used in pub play therefore we may as well balance them solely for pub play until we revamp them properly for use in competitive play. This hasn't really been looked at properly though. Pyro does tend to suffer from the problem of "If you are super good at pyro, it will feel OP to your enemies". I'm unsure thats really a problem with general power. (there are other options such as reducing the flamethrower ammo count, currently you can fire it for ages (spamming). Making the pyro choose when to use it might be interesting)

Spy has some awesome stuff in beta which includes a new secondary.

Caltrops aren't coming back. Bored of trying to explain why they are really bad for the game. Scout will be getting much more fun stuff.

Head stomp already does do more damage the faster you are travelling..

Nailgun will be getting a clip as squeek said

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Old 03-26-2012, 11:30 PM   #15
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Cool beans!

Any idea of when some of this will be launching out of the beta phase and to the general public?
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:07 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chickenprotector View Post
Thank you for that ricey.



Tiny nailgun that can spam 100 nails without stopping... the engineer's helpless with pounding on the sg till the scout or whatever stops spamming. I don't want to be stuck in a situation like that...
Your sentry isn't going to last for ever and shouldn't be that way. Also spamming your wrench shouldn't be your only means of protecting it.

Chase that willy scout down. Pull out your shot gun, position yourself between some of the nails and your gun, body block and shoot.

There just comes a time where your sentry is going to explode, wether it's because you were out played or ran out of metal to repair it. You just gotta accept that and build a new one.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:36 AM   #17
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Caltrops aren't coming back. Bored of trying to explain why they are really bad for the game. Scout will be getting much more fun stuff.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:49 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FDA_Approved View Post
Your sentry isn't going to last for ever and shouldn't be that way. Also spamming your wrench shouldn't be your only means of protecting it.

Chase that willy scout down. Pull out your shot gun, position yourself between some of the nails and your gun, body block and shoot.

There just comes a time where your sentry is going to explode, wether it's because you were out played or ran out of metal to repair it. You just gotta accept that and build a new one.
ON POINT BABY. plus a scout shooting at an sg for 10 seconds is a good thing for D, hes wasting his time. thats 10 seconds hes not capping the flag. odds are that sg will be back up his next run anyways.
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Old 03-27-2012, 04:19 AM   #19
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Okay, let's try this method of inquiry.

Rather than focus on what to change, could you tell me why

SCOUT
DEMOMAN
HWGUY
SPY
ENGINEER

should not be altered?

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Old 03-28-2012, 12:48 PM   #20
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Let me say this is not directed in general, not trying to start a flame war, this is just what I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock View Post
Medkit used to be infinite damage. The damage it has now is much weaker than it was.

Crowbar is 30 damage, knife is 50. This damage not only can't kill you, but you automatically regenerate it back anyway. It obviously has to be higher to compensate. Bear in mind that a close range shotgun blast is 54 damage so its almost not worth using as it is. Plus with a medkit you have to switch weapon if you want to switch target. This isnt true of shotty or nailgun. I'm pretty sure you'd get more DPS using shotgun or nailgun and you can use them from any range. Maybe the argument is that "people who can't aim can do more damage with a medkit than they can with a shotgun". Well that seems fine to me. Players must judge their ability level (and their opponents dodge ability) and choose a weapon accordingly.. sounds a lot like depth!
You're not taking into account that it's a TEAM who's on defense, if I brush by an opponent I don't want to take 45 damage in 2 seconds DIRECT to my health skipping over the armor. What if a Soldier runs into me while I'm trying to get this thing to ware off? It's going to do at least 40 damage to a pyro at full armor. That's going to take at least 1 rocket and a shotgun blast to kill me off if that. The fact of the matter is, it's too high. If it wasn't direct to health, it'd be fine. But it's directly to your health. I'm not saying cut down the medkit damage itself, but cut down the infection damage.

If I were infected (rarely) in the current state that it's in I would need to wait for it to ware off before I can go for the flag or risk getting 1-shot by a soldier.

Quote:
HOWEVER. Some people do feel it's less fair getting a DOT. Those people have real problems with the pyro fire for the same reason. It's a shame because it's an interesting mechanic (different to all the direct damage stuff) and adds different playstyles to the game.
You need to stack up the fire damage to get that much. The pyro's always been a "fire and forget" kind've fragger. I use it to get the flag and clear a path for my team. I can agree that you need to revamp it somewhat in order to make sure your own team doesn't get set on fire... fact of the matter is, the changes I'm suggesting are keeping the CORE of the game intact, while at the same time trying to balance it out.

Quote:
Engineer bags... anyone playing seriously won't drop any metal at all in their death bag pre-patch (and enemies will deliberately gather bags in your flag room anyway) and so for competitive gaming the metal was actually an increase on average. If you played with noobs who always dropped hundreds of metal because they don't know where their discard button is, well yes life was very easy as engineer, but it wasn't balanced. You get one noob on your team who doesnt discard, and hooray he's giving the enemy engineer lots of metal every run. Flame wars commence. Forcing everyone to discard all the time is not a good mechanic either. (people actually bound "discard" to their run button. Is it good design to encourage that?)
Why do you think I suggested a threshold for minimum or maximum. Having death bags have more than 30 metal would add back in the depth it was previously. The ONLY thing other than an engineer that carries 200 cells is a pyro. And most players in pick up will drop their 50 cells before going into the enemy base.

Quote:
Also basing the engineer metal intake based on how many people die near him is a really bad idea. Also bags that have more than 50 metal in, and your teammates pick them up to "help you"... bad. SO much fail with the old system. We're testing much better methods of regulating the engineer metal flow over time in beta. HOWEVER. That said we could potentially raise the drop amount in bags slightly if the new changes don't come through next patch...
Don't revert it back to the old system. That was a major fail in on itself. I'm saying come up with a hybrid system so that players CAN get more cells out of it, and if the enemies don't have cells on them, it plants 30 into the bag.

If you really want to go indepth, it'd take come coding, but if it's unique to each individual class for thresholds, it'd add more depth and planning.

Quote:
The reason pyros aren't used in pickups is because they are bad, not because they are OP. If you play pyro you're preventing your team from winning.
I'm intrigued. Tell me, how're they bad other than doing too much damage. Over all it's got enough fire power and speed for me to go in, cause chaos among the enemy, and distract them long enough for my team to grab the flag and haul ass out of there before I die if everything's properly executed.

I can see with Friendly Fire on them being a constant annoyance but players also need to learn to keep their distance (even teammates) while it's going on, usually in a firefight is to keep your cool, move to the objective while a few of your own offense breaks off to distract the enemy. In otherwords: scout looks at firefight "hmm I should avoid that" he thinks to himself. He grabs the flag and no one is none the wiser.

You'd be surprised on how well a pyro does in the right hands on offense, not defense. Defense it's okay, but it's primarily an offensive class.

On a further note, I don't play pickups because I don't like how they're played. If it wasn't OvD only (for either side) on CTF, I'd be happy to play them, as a matter of fact, I would LOVE to play a few and show off how good I am. Combine that with restricting gameplay elements (i.e. pyro) I just don't feel the need.

Pub play is usually far more intense if you get an organized game going, a few going on offense a few on defense. It makes things far more competitive because you need to keep up with the enemy team, and it shows you what holes you have in your own team and allows for more in-depth playing.

That is what I enjoy, not playing a one-sided game. It's far more intense and far more satisfying at the end of the game.

Quote:
HOWEVER i did suggest nerfing them slightly since they are only used in pub play therefore we may as well balance them solely for pub play until we revamp them properly for use in competitive play. This hasn't really been looked at properly though. Pyro does tend to suffer from the problem of "If you are super good at pyro, it will feel OP to your enemies". I'm unsure thats really a problem with general power. (there are other options such as reducing the flamethrower ammo count, currently you can fire it for ages (spamming). Making the pyro choose when to use it might be interesting)
There are other options, but it still doesn't take the fact that it does 80/second. Combine that with the tier damage in its current state, you've got a recipe for disaster. You'll be doing something like 100-175/second with level 3 tier damage. Did THAT occur to you?

With the jet-pack system, you'll be using AT LEAST 20 cells down to speed yourself up, and get to a particular area. If you limit the ammunition stream, take that into account. A clip size of maybe 75 or so before needing to reload should be ample.
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