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Old 07-04-2012, 03:24 AM   #1
CaptainAhab
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Pyro Thread

What can be done to fix the class?

Nerfing the afterburn damage?

Removing the stack?

Decreasing the length of afterburn?

Decreasing the blast radius of the incendiary cannon?

Removing level 3 burn damage?

Simply nerfing all damage done by the pyro drastically?

Discuss.
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:30 AM   #2
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just remove it
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:47 AM   #3
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Removing ANY class is a cop out. It's taking the EASY way out. Don't remove the class please.

My suggestions for the pyro's damage stacking are based on a percentage of burn.

Direct hit with flamethrower for 1 second would start at, say 10% burn.

Direct hit with IC rocket would do the same 10%.

Afterburn should only start at level 1 burn.

Level 1 burn would start at 25%, so that means when the pyro stops shooting you if you are below that 25% threshold, you would not have any afterburn.


3 seconds being actively hit with the flamethrower would bring it up to 30% burn, which still means hitting someone with an IC would only get you up to 40% burn.

Level 2 burn would start at 50-60% and would make the player scream. Level 3 burn would need to be removed. Once lvl 2 afterburn is activated, depending on how high a percentage above level 2 you are burned will depend on how long the afterburn lasts.
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:03 AM   #4
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I think that Kube has the right idea. We were discussing the class on his server and I brought up 3 things, 1. was that the flame thrower is to long, maybe nerfing its length would help 2. was making the damage a percentage based damage which, Moto did a great job explaining and 3. was maybe the stacking damage doesnt start with the first IC but, maybe the 2nd or 3rd. I dont know what needs to be done to the class but, something needs to be done. All I know is that getting hit by an IC and less than a second burst of flame brings a scout to 10% health, is not good and is OP.
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Old 07-04-2012, 05:10 AM   #5
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delete scouts from game, solved
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Old 07-04-2012, 05:13 AM   #6
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ok serious reply, these are good ideas
i would like to see some sort of 'ramping up' mechanic to the dmg that is less binary then the current system
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Old 07-04-2012, 06:23 AM   #7
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Remove after burn completely. Rage inducing mechanic. Just doesn't make sense to me that, "oh I attacked you with my weapon, i'm rewarded with a dot on my enemy, I can run away now, i can die now, who gives a fuck I get to stop working for my kill."

It's just RRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE EEEE inducing.

RRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEE
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGEE EEEEEEEEEE

Seriously when has anyone in any fortress game been like, man I sure do enjoy playing against pyros, it's just a swell time. The only class that even comes close to being that much of a pain to play against is the sniper, and I find sniper waaaaay more tolerable.

Remove after burn.

Remove the flame thrower. I know I can't come up with anything better, but seriously.


And why is "remove pyro" a cop out solution. I think it's rather ground breaking. Let's thing about it. Pyro is in fortress games, no one fucking likes playing against it. Be the first fortress game to remove him? Win?

But because we're stuck with this p.o.s, the flame thrower and afterburn are why people hate pyro. I don't think anyone really gets annoyed with being hit with an IC. Hey, it's an arced projectile, good on you. I don't think anyone minds taking INITIAL damage for walking through a nalpalm grenade. It's the flame thrower and after burn that just piss people off. As long as those two things remain in any form, people will get mad.
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Old 07-04-2012, 06:23 AM   #8
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My main gripe is that the pyro went from a disruption class in TFC to a "dps-whore" in FF. Yeah, he has a whole bunch more nifty tools, but what irritates people most is the raw killing potential he has. Being as implementing a blind is out of the question, I wouldn't mind too much a slight nerf to his damage, but definitely keep his speed and vertical potency. It's neat to have alternatives to scout/medic for O.
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:02 AM   #9
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Turn it into a movement class.

So far we have 3 offensive classes:

Scout (movement based)
Medic (DM and movement based)
Spy (Loosely movement based since he can get by sentries)

4 defensive classes:

Soldier
Demo
Heavy
Engie

Classic O v D CTF focuses on fragging classes vs movement classes, a very compelling dynamic IMO. Pyro does not fit into this. Therefore, either make him defensive focused (then it would be 5 classes vs 3) or . . .

Make Pyro a 4th offensive class that has a jetpack. (Replaces the flamethrower) No afterburn beyond level 1, and no flamethrower. IC Cannon cool because it can be used for starting movement with the jetpack.

If nothing else, remove burn completely. Rage inducing mechanic as FDA said and it's just not fun. RAGE INDUCING MECHANIC! REMOVE IT FOREVER! NOBODY WILL MISS IT! HOLY SHIT REMOVE REMOVE REMOVE THAT SHIT!

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Old 07-04-2012, 09:02 AM   #10
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Also, someone(cant remember who, maybe ahab) had the idea to make it so the faster you are traveling, the afterburn would reduce faster.

So, if you are a Scout, you get burned by a pesky Pyro, then use a conc to boost you somewhere, it would effectively put your flames out or make them go out faster than normal.

A Heavy's right-click feature could do the same thing or if a projectile-type healing gun were introduced for the Medic, that gun's projectile could also have a similar effect.
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
Also, someone(cant remember who, maybe ahab) had the idea to make it so the faster you are traveling, the afterburn would reduce faster.
me me me! pick me! Someone else had the idea more recently but I still say I said it first
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Old 07-04-2012, 05:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
Removing ANY class is a cop out. It's taking the EASY way out. Don't remove the class please.
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Also, someone(cant remember who, maybe ahab) had the idea to make it so the faster you are traveling, the afterburn would reduce faster.

So, if you are a Scout, you get burned by a pesky Pyro, then use a conc to boost you somewhere, it would effectively put your flames out or make them go out faster than normal.

A Heavy's right-click feature could do the same thing or if a projectile-type healing gun were introduced for the Medic, that gun's projectile could also have a similar effect.
bastard took the words right out of my mouth (un)luckily for you guys.

basically i think that a really good way to balance a pyro isn't to nerf it into the ground but rather use the maps/mechanics of other things to keep its overwhelming power in check. like adding water/bags/speed reduces fires devastating effects. would be a good thing all round i think also sticking with one level of burn would be best it simplify the class but also it keeps it power manage able and allows proper skill based weapons to be used instead of the lousy weapons it has now.

honestly tf2 Pyro > FF Pyro (that's based on skill ceiling imho .)

suggested weapons: instead of replacing the super shotgun I think giving it something long range would be better for the class. so think replacing the regular shotgun would be better.
flare gun: be just like tf2 flare gun its great weapon and better than the napalm alot better imho. the idea is that you can finish people after you've done the bulk of damage with your flamethrower.
incendiary shotgun: just like regular shotgun but uses inced ammo. closer the range more likely to light something like that. same concept as flare gun.

removing napalm: napalm has to go its just stupid sure its unique but thats where it stops there, at-least for me. It doesn't fit the role a pyro seems to want to fill but can't. its there so pyro can be a tank like a soilder but really the pyro seems to fit the role of pseudo medic/scout much better. I think replacing it something as a finisher/harasser since the pyro isn't really built to be a tank but a mobility class.

class concept: that pyro should fill would be a highly mobile offensive threat with a defensive niche called spy checking. it doesn't seem to fill that role as of now its hard to explain why.
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Old 07-04-2012, 05:29 PM   #13
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well that was a really innovative post
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Old 07-04-2012, 09:49 PM   #14
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well that was a really innovative post
nice flamebate seriously do better make a post of what you would do I'd love to hear it. better yet why you don't like the idea. other than ofc that i mentioned tf2...
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:12 PM   #15
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just remove it
"just !remove it"

I corrected it for you.

Also, when I see the word "flamebate", WiFiDi, I think of disgusting, despicable acts using flames...

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Old 07-05-2012, 01:30 PM   #16
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Reduce burn damage, increase stopping power and/or maneuverability. Returning the Pyro to TFC state would make him useless. The pyro in TFC did no real damage, had no maneuverability, and was just worse than any other class he tried to replace (even as a "disruptor" or "chaos-causer"). Turning the class into a medic with fire is just uncreative.

Perhaps remove multi-level burn, increase the stopping power and damage of the incendiary cannon, increase the sustained damage of the flamethrower. Leave napalm as it is but perhaps increase the duration, make the pyro completely immune to it (except the initial explosion), make it more effective against sentry guns? All sorts of random ideas.

The ability to do high damage is fine. The ability to drop someone from 100 to 0 in under a second if you time it right can be a bit annoying though. I think is as long as the pyro is continually attack his enemy, high damage is fine. The issue is when high damage continues after the pyro is dead or has moved on (e.g. killing a scout with only level 2 burn).
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:00 PM   #17
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Perhaps remove multi-level burn, increase the stopping power and damage of the incendiary cannon, increase the sustained damage of the flamethrower. Leave napalm as it is but perhaps increase the duration, make the pyro completely immune to it (except the initial explosion), make it more effective against sentry guns? All sorts of random ideas.

The ability to do high damage is fine. The ability to drop someone from 100 to 0 in under a second if you time it right can be a bit annoying though. I think is as long as the pyro is continually attack his enemy, high damage is fine. The issue is when high damage continues after the pyro is dead or has moved on (e.g. killing a scout with only level 2 burn).


No, No, No, and NO.

Make the Napalm do more damage to the sg? Do you even play this game? It fucking wrecks it, while also wrecking the Engy.

Pyro is bad because of his high damage out put, which is why he's frown upon.

Add reload to IC, Flamethrower. Reduce Damage to Flamethower and burn levels. Reduce Napalm to 1, boost damage, less effective towards SGs(the sg is fucking metal bitches.)
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Old 07-05-2012, 04:18 PM   #18
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but if we nerf the pyro so much that it isn't absurdly easy to pwn ppl anymore, what will the newbies play???????????????????????????????
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Old 07-05-2012, 05:38 PM   #19
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Remove afterburn entirely.
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Old 07-05-2012, 06:01 PM   #20
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but if we nerf the pyro so much that it isn't absurdly easy to pwn ppl anymore, what will the newbies play???????????????????????????????
Sniper. Then we nerf the sniper!

it's simple!
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