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Old 07-27-2010, 01:34 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Your suggestion is a vicious cycle. Here's a problem. Let's fix it with a problem. That will encourage a problem. We can fix that with a problem. I'd rather the Sniper class get trashed then having to lower myself to their shitty standards to act as a counter toward a class that has no business in this game except as an attraction to pussies. I'll never play that god awful class with any ounce of sincerity.
How is it "fix it with a problem"? You have the same exact classes as everyone else. Therefor, you have the exact same tools at your disposal as everyone else. The only REAL difference, is skill levels, which to be honest, if you practiced a class as much as you come here and whine about them, you'd be a fucking master. You say Sniper is a pussy class..... but someone else can and will argue the same exact point with every other class in the game. Each one has it's strenghs and weaknesses.

Want examples?

Engineer is a pussy class because the Engy can use a remote weapon to kill without risk to himself.
Scout is a pussy class because he can move fast enough to evade every other class.
Medic is a pussy class because he can infect and kill slowly with 1 touch.
Demoman is a pussy class because he can set pipe-bomb traps and kill without risk to himself. Let's not mention the power of the detpack.
Pyro is a pussy class, because he has 3 levels of burn that can kill you in seconds.
Soldier is a pussy class because he has rockets and they go boom.
Sniper is a pussy class because he can kill you at a distance.
HWGuy is a pussy class because he has a heavy damage weapon and lots of health.
Spy is a pussy class because he can disappear and 1-hit kill you from behind.
Civilian is a pussy class because of Unagi-Power-Unagi.
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Old 07-27-2010, 01:52 AM   #42
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It isn't like "Oh, I just got outgunned by a Heavy. Maybe I should go Heavy to outgun him back." where you're not making an implication that the Heavy is broken or out of place. I am saying straight up that the Sniper is broken and doesn't belong. You're giving me the advice you would give to someone making the former implication. If I say that the Sniper is broken, the last thing I want to hear is to go Sniper to counter it. I shouldn't have to counter a problem with a problem. Problems should get fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Engineer is a pussy class because the Engy can use a remote weapon to kill without risk to himself.
The gun follows the risk for reward principle, and it's the entity doing the fighting.

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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Scout is a pussy class because he can move fast enough to evade every other class.
That's the whole purpose. He relies on evasion because he puts himself at risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Medic is a pussy class because he can infect and kill slowly with 1 touch.
The Medic puts himself at huge risk (melee range) for the reward of infection, however cheap it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Demoman is a pussy class because he can set pipe-bomb traps and kill without risk to himself. Let's not mention the power of the detpack.
There's a small argument here, but it's not very practical. Once your pipes or detpack are set, they can't be moved, so it's not nearly as unforgiving as someone who can keep lining up the shot with a hitscan weapon which you can't really 'dodge' like you can a pipe or a detpack.

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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Pyro is a pussy class, because he has 3 levels of burn that can kill you in seconds.
Burn stacking mandates close/medium range interaction.

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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Soldier is a pussy class because he has rockets and they go boom.
NOPE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Sniper is a pussy class because he can kill you at a distance.
I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY AGREE.

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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
HWGuy is a pussy class because he has a heavy damage weapon and lots of health.
That weapon only fares well at about the same ranges you should. So, you know, interact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Spy is a pussy class because he can disappear and 1-hit kill you from behind.
I agree but not in principle, just because I find it irritating. The Spy can't interact while cloaked and backstabbing me still takes place at a range where I had the potential to interact. It's just arguably cheap that his backstab takes you out in one hit, because there's no feedback loop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Civilian is a pussy class because of Unagi-Power-Unagi.
Civilian is a fine gentleman. That top hat and tommy gun radiate bad-ass.

Last edited by Bridget; 07-27-2010 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:05 AM   #43
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You can still interact with an enemy sniper, if you become one yourself. How many times do I have to say it?
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:20 AM   #44
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How do we put out this fire?
Let's drop a nuclear bomb on it.
Why don't we just hose it down?
NO! Trust me. The resulting explosion will put out the fire.
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:36 AM   #45
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That made no sense whatsoever.... but that's your whole arguement.... nonsense.

But, since you mentioned fire..... ever hear of using a fireline to fight a forest fire?
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:46 AM   #46
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It makes perfect sense,
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Old 07-27-2010, 05:15 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
You can still interact with an enemy sniper, if you become one yourself.
Starting sniper wars doesn't help anything.
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:34 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing
Not only does the list itself seem subjective, but so does how each class applies to it. I think that spies definitely break each of those items more than a sniper.. hell I would even argue that conc grenades break each of these items.
I only talked about the sniper because that's what the thread is about. If you want to talk about the problems of the spy, I'm all for it. The spy is far from perfect, and we are testing things in the beta to try to address that. Design goals are just that: goals. FF does not adhere to all of them yet. As for the conc grenade, you're going to actually have to do that arguing you said you would do to convince me of that. I'll start:
  • The conc grenade being used for movement is not being used for combat, but I'll play along.
  • The conc grenade being used for movement makes combat last longer, assuming that combat ends when one of the combatants dies (I don't care if someone chooses not to fight and successfully avoids combat, I care about the length of the fight when one player is damaging another [doing so at maximum potential is likely even better]).
  • The conc grenade being used for movement is interactive, because both the mover and the defender are affecting eachother's decisions (where/when to move, where/when to shoot, which weapon to use, etc).
  • The conc grenade being used for movement does not cost the defender fun, as he can potentially interact with the moving player. In fact, at worst, the concer just doesn't affect the defender at all. Most likely, though, the concer improves the ability for the defender to have fun (the defender has the opportunity to shoot at someone).

Quote:
Regarding your other post (which was well laid out and I was disappointed that I didn't get to respond before the thread was locked):

A major flaw in your argument is that you're trying to simplify the issue by categorizing all aspects of this game into 'mulch' and 'sniper' and then weighing the possibilities included in each style. This is a gross oversimplification because it neglects all of the (very very numerous) other styles of play in the game. In some way, engies, spies, scouts, snipers, demos, and medics all break what your definition of mulching is (that's more than half of the game's classes). You can't weigh mulching against sniping only, for the argument to work you must weigh mulching vs everything else that impacts mulching but isn't. At that point, to eliminate either one would be a giant problem for the game.
You're going to have to do more than just make a list to convince me of other classes impacting mulching negatively. I'll try to predict your answers and respond in advance:
  • Engineer: The SG. I'm not quite sure if you can put the SG in a combat style, but seeing as how "Fights last a fair amount of time; each player has roughly equal opportunity to damage the other" fits most of the time with the SG, I'd say it's a mulcher (one with a constant and known effectiveness, predictable actions, and exploitable weaknesses). I see your point with this one, though, and it certainly is a gray area. Player vs Non-player combat is strange.
  • Spy: Backstab. I'm with you on that. If backstab range/angle were to increase more and more, mulching would become less and less viable. That's certainly a potential problem.
  • Scout: No clue.
  • Demo: Grellow pipe traps. As Bridget pointed out, they are immobile, so the player playing against the demoman dictates their effectiveness and the length of the fight. Detpacks. Another weird one. It's not ideal, but I'm not sure if it fits into the combat style argument.
  • Medic: Infection maybe? The current infection is certainly a problem and breaks some design goals, but I'm not sure if it fits into the combat style argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing
Further, your argument is flawed in that it assumes that the sniping and mulching style of play can't coexist. It's OK that sniping interrupts mulching (although I would definitely argue that it's a two-way street here and mulching impacts sniping too, it just depends on the field of play.. try thinking anything except aardvark) and it's certainly not the only thing that does. I think that conc grenades do a great deal more to interrupt mulching than does sniping - in most cases it completely ends whatever fight was going on while the offensive class slips away (or it ensures that no mulching will take place at all by propelling the offensive class past whatever battle was about to take place). Again, this isn't limited to a couple of instances where mulching is negatively affected by non-mulchers, more than half of the classes in this game break what you define as mulching in some way.
My argument doesn't assume that, but rather it concludes it. One is a detriment to the other, so removing one of them would provide an overall positive. Also, it's not the interrupting itself that makes sniping a detriment to mulching, it's the type of interrupting. The sniper affects the ability of the mulcher to mulch at all. Someone concing out of a fight only affects the ability of the mulcher to mulch that specific person. That is perfectly acceptable. People fleeing from combat is present in both combat styles.
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Last edited by squeek.; 07-27-2010 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:57 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
Your suggestion is a vicious cycle. Here's a problem. Let's fix it with a problem. That will encourage a problem. We can fix that with a problem.
Wow, this sounds like FF balance in a nutshell.
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Old 07-28-2010, 05:36 PM   #50
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How bout all players having a type of sidearm that is effective against long range targets, but doesnt ricochet like the railgun and give the NG a 3 shot barrage Super Rail gun. pesky snipers...
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:38 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixel View Post
Starting sniper wars doesn't help anything.
So you're saying, if the enemy team has a sniper, your whole team should snipe? Or are you assuming that will happen? The best way to counter a sniper, is with a sniper.... not a whole damned team of them. Sniper is a support class, not a major class like the scout/medic/solly.

(btw- a good sniper war is a load of fun on snipers only maps, or if everyone wants to do it on a "regular" map.)
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Old 07-28-2010, 10:56 PM   #52
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I guess I'll just dick around with explaining why that's a bad idea.

Code:
class Sniper:

	def __init__(self,SniperCount):

		SniperCount = SniperCount + 1

		print("Sniper #%s has been created to counter #%s") % (SniperCount, SniperCount-1)

		# Sniper is the only counter to sniper.
		# Therefore, we must create a new sniper.

		NecessaryCounter = Sniper(SniperCount)

InitialSniper = Sniper(1)
Quote:
RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded
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This is Fortress Forever not Rock Paper Scissors.

Last edited by Bridget; 07-28-2010 at 11:10 PM. Reason: confused programmer is confused
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:59 PM   #53
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Code:
def sniper(count = 1):
    print count
    sniper(count + 1)

callvote map aardvark 
sniper()
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:30 AM   #54
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Get out of here, Wyoming.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:34 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
This is Fortress Forever not Rock Paper Scissors.
In PRS, rock beats scissors, scissors beat paper, and paper beats rock. It's straight up luck. There is no actual skill involved. Stop pulling "luck shots" to use as comparisons.

Wait... before we go any further.... do you actually PLAY a TF game? I play TFC, FF, and very rarely TF2. TFC is my favorite PC game of all time. I am not trying to make FF into TFC with prettier graphix. You should know that from my posts in the beta section. If you don't, you really should... because it will teach you the dynamics of the Fortress style of play.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:46 AM   #56
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I used RPS as a metaphor against singular hard counters. Hurpa durpa
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:50 AM   #57
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Oh, so I should counter with some sort of semi-retarded euphamism that doesn't fit either?
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:01 AM   #58
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Your personal inability to understand != whether something is inherently understandable
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Old 07-29-2010, 04:47 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronzui View Post
How bout all players having a type of sidearm that is effective against long range targets, but doesnt ricochet like the railgun and give the NG a 3 shot barrage Super Rail gun. pesky snipers...
I suggested giving other classes long range weapons back on page one.
Here is Squeek's response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
Because long range doesn't fit very well with the game as a whole. The sniper class is a carryover from previous versions of Team Fortress and will likely see an overhaul in the future.

We had a huge discussion about the sniper fairly recently in this thread.
I don't see what the overhaul could be that would fix this problem though. A sniper is supposed to shot from afar. That's what makes it a sniper.
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:06 AM   #60
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Sniper is mostly defined as someone who shoots from a concealed location.
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