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Old 02-05-2010, 12:00 AM   #41
Bridget
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Couldn't Demomen run about stripping their team-mate's armor to grief?
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Old 02-05-2010, 12:13 AM   #42
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Considering AvD IS a specific game type- I suggest these be implemented via lua.

Theoretically (I'm no LUA guy), you should be able to enable friendly fire, negate all damages, and cap push to X amount.
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Old 02-05-2010, 03:50 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Couldn't Demomen run about stripping their team-mate's armor to grief?
Yes. Any other class could do the same too (were this just implemented generally), I suppose. And spychecking becomes even less fun than it is already for Spies.

Armour strip is not a 'perfect' solution, I admit. However, some downside is required to something so useful. Some form of damage dealt to the 'jumper' is, I suppose, the most obvious and to some extent intuitive solution.


A limitation on how far you could be sent flying... could be interesting. Perhaps combined with how much armour you have left. So, if you have 50% of your armour, but the blast was powerful enough that it would strip exactly 100%, you'd only be sent half of the distance the force of the blast would normally send you.

I'm not really sure thats intuitive or even a good idea though. .


Also, the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of doing it via Lua (even though I've not had chance to try that yet :/)... to have a server where one map (e.g. Dustbowl) you're armour stripping, but the next map (e.g. 2fort) you do no team damage at all... that just seems unnessecarily aukward to me. An mp_teamplay style thing would be a better solution, I think.
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Old 02-05-2010, 03:52 AM   #44
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Why should people even be allowed to get shot across the map in the first place?
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:03 AM   #45
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Well, they shouldn't. So, I guess we should remove concs, nades, rockets, jumppads, sniper boosting, pyro jumping etc. etc. as well, since all those can be used to acheive much the same effect.

Well, I'm serious about the jumppads, at least

The issue in my opinion is not so much it's possible, it's that there's no downside to it. No risk to the reward.
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Old 02-05-2010, 05:26 AM   #46
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Pads should not be taken out, but they should be re-worked to have limitations. Since the Jump Pads are pretty much the closest things to the teleporter we will be allowed to get, they should be made to have similar limitations.

Jump pads should require two separate pads, one you jump off of and one you land on, and cannot divert from. You can jump off of either pad, but you are always directed to the opposite pad. This prevents people air-strafing off of pads into flag rooms or doing pad+conc/frag combos to get insane distances that make the device over-powered.

Also, just do what they did in TF2. Because team-assisted jumps cost virtually nothing and have exponentially high rewards, simply don't allow explosives, concs, and the sniper rifle to have any knock-back on friendlies.

However, this won't stop some inventive players who are running slower classes from jumping on top of dropped enemy concs and riding them across the map. I've done it, it's awesome, and it is infinitely convenient as a Soldier. Since I'm nearly always blocking chokepoints as that class, there's more than enough concs to choose from.

Last edited by Eon Seig; 02-05-2010 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 02-05-2010, 06:19 AM   #47
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Suggestions:
  • The jump pad could use a timer. (It glows when available)
  • The jump pad could have a use limit.
  • The jump pad could 'recharge'. Jumping too soon means little push. You must wait for a full recharge for max push.
  • The jump pad could have a 100% when built. Heavier classes waste more charge jumping, 0% = blows up
  • Jumping on the jump pad with a primed grenade = force causes you to drop nade
  • Jump pad can be unidirectional, specified by the Scout, not as dynamic as it is.
  • Sabotage jump pads. Throws players in random directions.
  • 'jump pad fatigue' can't use weapons or nades for x seconds after jump

The jump pad can't be interacted with right now. Once it's down (which is relatively easy to make happen. Some maps allow you to set them up at the gates on avd) then the enemy is almost guaranteed increased mobility unless the defense can cover the jump pad. So, here are some suggestions further:
  • Players can damage jump pad.
  • EMPS waste jump pad charge.
  • Enemy can jump on the pad and waste charge or delay its usage.
  • Detpacks clear the immediate area of jump pads, reducing them to debris.
  • If an enemy is standing on the jump pad, it can't be used.

Here's a reworking for the jump pad to slow it down if remains as it is: The Scout can rotate the jump pad when he has it out (pressing the deploy button aims it in the Scout's direction) and place it. Once it's placed, a little arrow at the front of the jump pad moves from left to center to right and loops through this. In order to propel yourself straight forward, you must line it up flush with the intended direction.

If not that, the lighted corners of the Jump Pad can slowly get brighter and more intense before settling back to a dark and dim setting. This gauges how powerful the push is, meaning you'll be spending some time trying to jump when it's at its brightest and most intense. I don't know about these ideas, though, because they seem more about luck and distraction than anything intuitive and entertaining. I'll throw them out anyway.

Last edited by Bridget; 02-05-2010 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 02-05-2010, 06:52 AM   #48
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To branch off of Bridget's idea for the jump pad...
  • Jump pads start with 1500 health.
  • Every second, they lose 10 health.
  • When used, they lose 50 health.
  • Or, have the damage based on class speed. Maybe [(800-ClassSpeed)/10]?
  • They recieve damage from weapons just like an engineer buildable.
  • EMPs do large amounts of damage - 500?

They'd last longer while not under use, but if everyone on your team's using it, it won't last long.

I'd also love for it to be an engineer buildable, to "replace" teleporters - if it was for engies, they could repair it, maybe upgrade it to give it more health/slightly more push? (Say, 600/900/1200 speed based on level)

And scouts could get their caltrops back!
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Old 02-06-2010, 03:48 AM   #49
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Well here's an easy question then. Even if they have more limitations, jump pads are a clear advantage to offense, which erodes balance. What does defense get to compensate?
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Old 02-06-2010, 05:18 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
  • Sabotage jump pads. Throws players in random directions.
  • Players can damage jump pad.
  • EMPS waste jump pad charge.
  • Enemy can jump on the pad and waste charge or delay its usage.
  • Detpacks clear the immediate area of jump pads, reducing them to debris.
  • If an enemy is standing on the jump pad, it can't be used.
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Old 02-06-2010, 05:20 AM   #51
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If they were destroyable, and deteriorated faster with more people using them, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. On AvD maps, they'd die quickly if placed in the open. Nor would they be able to launch 30 sollies/heavies, even if it was sheltered. (Of course, if it was an engi building/repairable, then sure...but that's using a vital O slot for an engi that just stays in one place, whacking a JP. It's not as useful as a medic/soldier that's skilled, but it's ALSO better than an engi that stays back with his SG, which we see plenty of as is.)

I think it'd also be good for league play.
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Old 02-06-2010, 05:49 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
Sabotage jump pads. Throws players in random directions.
Players can damage jump pad.
EMPS waste jump pad charge.
Enemy can jump on the pad and waste charge or delay its usage.
Detpacks clear the immediate area of jump pads, reducing them to debris.
If an enemy is standing on the jump pad, it can't be used.
So in other words, defense doesn't get shit. It's still an unneeded advantage for offense, just not as big as one. Great.

Last edited by chilledsanity; 02-06-2010 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 02-06-2010, 05:51 AM   #53
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Well here's an easy question then. Even if they have more limitations, jump pads are a clear advantage to offense, which erodes balance. What does defense get to compensate?
Sentries? Jump pads are an offense building and sentries are a defense building. They sorta work to counteract one another in some ways. TF2 has teleporters, which are a clear offensive advantage (and they essentially have the same purpose as jump pads). The way you counter teleporters is by finding them and destroying them. Either go get the entrance (likely to not be defended very well. people don't stay near spawn very long) or get the exit (likely to be smack in the middle of a sentry farm).

Since there is only an entrance to the jump pad, we just have to make the pad vulnerable to enemy attack.

This is why Bridget's suggestion pretty much works. Making it possible for the defense to counter a pad would solve the majority of problems.

Last edited by Eon Seig; 02-06-2010 at 05:53 AM.
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Old 02-06-2010, 06:00 AM   #54
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Well, what do you expect, Chilled? Do you expect the D to blink at the jump pad and have it blow up?
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Old 02-06-2010, 06:31 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Why should people even be allowed to get shot across the map in the first place?
Spam.
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Old 02-06-2010, 06:32 AM   #56
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mp_teamplay 11
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:35 AM   #57
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Quote:
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Well, what do you expect, Chilled? Do you expect the D to blink at the jump pad and have it blow up?
No, I typed this already:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
I think the best solution is since the devs weren't shy about giving offense powerful movement abilities, defense should be given some powerful measures to counteract them.
It's real simple. If you're going to give something that constitutes a clear advantage to one side, give something to the other side so they don't stomp all over them. Here's a another way to look at it:

Pretend O/D capability are represented in numbers.

O = 1.0
D = 1.0

Now add the jump pad:

O = 1.0 + 0.3 = 1.3
D = 1.0

Now weaken the jump pad:

O = 1.3 - 0.15 = 1.15
D = 1.0

Do you understand the situation? And yes, the problem isn't this clearcut, but the concept is the same. If you add something to one side, add something to the other side to balance it out.

Last edited by chilledsanity; 02-06-2010 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 02-06-2010, 08:55 AM   #58
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Those are counters. You could be able to damage the jump pad until it breaks, use up its charges or use it between delay to deny it to the offense, sabotage it to throw enemies in random directions, or stand on it to disable it until an offensive member managed to remove you from it. What more could be done?
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Old 02-06-2010, 09:01 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Those are counters. You could be able to damage the jump pad until it breaks, use up its charges or use it between delay to deny it to the offense, sabotage it to throw enemies in random directions, or stand on it to disable it until an offensive member managed to remove you from it. What more could be done?
So now instead of focusing on killing the enemy, defense has to focus on killing the enemy and the jump pad all the while the ones they miss have a speed advantage of flying closer to the goal. This still weakens defense. As for what can be done, read my post on the previous page.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:32 PM   #60
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to be fair chilledsanity does have a point and its something we've been working on with regard to various defence classes (2nd grenades +attack2 and melee)

its a DM and movement game. so there should be counters to movement which is something we don't have on defence (other than splash damage on explosions).
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