Why Source engine?

[Credge]

The only thing bad about Source is that high speeds are dick and Valve seems content in keeping it that way.

[Beef Eater]

Originally Posted by Credge

The only thing bad about Source is that high speeds are dick and Valve seems content in keeping it that way.

True, the big problem with the Source engine itself is the netcode (and to a lesser degree, performance, because a Quake-style competitive game like this one is best when it's not resource heavy IMO (though Source has relatively low minimum specs for a modern engine)). I really don't understand why Valve's not concerned with the netcode.

[zelenjava]

Originally Posted by Beef Eater

True, the big problem with the Source engine itself is the netcode (and to a lesser degree, performance, because a Quake-style competitive game like this one is best when it's not resource heavy IMO (though Source has relatively low minimum specs for a modern engine)). I really don't understand why Valve's not concerned with the netcode.

I wonder if they want it like that purely because it would completely change something like TF2 if the sniper actually had decent reg. nothing would get past realistically.

[chilledsanity]

I could be mistaken, but I don't know of another engine that would have received the same playerbase that isn't Source. Just because other engines have similar or better capabilities doesn't mean there's a playerbase that's even aware of them, whereas there are a zillion mods for Source.

Also the thing I love the most about FF in Source that I think was done tremendously well was the Havok ragdoll physics in FF. That alone is what kept me from wanting to go back to TFC many times.

[Beef Eater]

Happy new year everyone, and sorry for the late reply/bump!

Originally Posted by zelenjava

I wonder if they want it like that purely because it would completely change something like TF2 if the sniper actually had decent reg. nothing would get past realistically.

From my experience, snipers benefit from the netcode, the lag compensation allows them them to shoot people "behind walls" Logically though, no one benefits or loses more than anyone else, except perhaps the attacker vs the guy who's retreating.

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I could be mistaken, but I don't know of another engine that would have received the same playerbase that isn't Source. Just because other engines have similar or better capabilities doesn't mean there's a playerbase that's even aware of them, whereas there are a zillion mods for Source.

I don't think the engine matters much to the general public as long as it's a great game that you can play without installing anything else. For people that own Valve games and have them installed that's not a problem for a GoldSrc/Source mod, but more people would be able to play if the game was running standalone on an open source/self built engine (definitely not suggesting the team build an engine themselves!)

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Also the thing I love the most about FF in Source that I think was done tremendously well was the Havok ragdoll physics in FF. That alone is what kept me from wanting to go back to TFC many times.

To each his own I guess, I think client side ragdolls are a waste from a gameplay standpoint because they can't be gibbed and they can't be used to detonate grenades on Quake 3 style. Moreover, if they were made server side and thus could be used for both these things, they would be a very unpredictable gameplay element because of their realistic physics (like comparing FF demoman grenades with TF2 ones, except of course with a much lesser impact on gameplay because they're just bodies)

Anyway, I read on the forum that at least a few of the Warsow devs are positive about ragdolls and would like to see them in the game some time, so maybe that Source advantage will disappear as Warsow develops

[cjeshjoir™]

Does anyone know for sure that the netcode hasnt been changed with Orangebox?

[!nF3D4L]

the engine matters greatly. Steam is a simple and easy way to find download and install mods/games. I doubt 90% of our players wouldn't have found the game. It would be in the same or worse situation.

[Beef Eater]

Originally Posted by cjeshjoir™

Does anyone know for sure that the netcode hasnt been changed with Orangebox?

I bet the engine's netcode changed in the 07 incarnation, just not sufficiently. TF2 demonstrates that

Originally Posted by !nF3D4L

the engine matters greatly. Steam is a simple and easy way to find download and install mods/games. I doubt 90% of our players wouldn't have found the game. It would be in the same or worse situation.

Really? 90% of FF players can't browse the web for mods/free games? I somehow doubt that. I also doubt 90% of FF players first saw the mod when they browsed the Steam mods list, but maybe I'm out of the loop when it comes to most Steam users' way of finding mods... Edit: Oh, that was a double negative! Yes, I agree with you

In any case, I think not being a part of an official Steam mods list (not Steamworks), and on the other hand being available to everyone who knows how to look for free games and mods on the web, would kind of weigh out each other con/pro wise I think FF would be in the same or better situation, at least EU pub wise.

But I digress, neither of us can prove one way or the other if the mod/game's popularity would increase, stay the same or worsen, only assume. The main reason I would like FF to use Wsw/CPMA engine is for gameplay reasons. The mod won't likely make a change this big at this point in development, so I guess this thread is a bit pointless Just felt like discussing it.

[Elmo]

hah, despite your conclusion I was still quite happy to see it brought up and discussed as it was. So thank you

From a completely non-tech, onlooker point of view I agree with you! Or even if its just for EU games so I could stop saying "the Turks have laghax again!"

I just don't get why the Turks are so hard to hit!!

[sp00ky]

It doesn't matter which engine they use. The CTF concept is so bloody old no one from the "new age" gamers want to play it anymore, specialy with a class system that needs practice for every single class.

I really would prefer the ut3 engine for a tf mod nowadays, since it is non commerical free and has tons of awesome features, but, FF is maybe the last game of his kind, so enjoy the game and keep it alife as long as you can, it doesn't matter which engine it's coded on, ff is a great mod and tfc has never been this perfect

Big props on the FF dev Team for working on it for just a few guys who still like this type of gameplay since '97 :')

[GenghisTron]

So much facepalm in the above post. Don't know where to start.

[sp00ky]

aww

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by Beef Eater

But I digress, neither of us can prove one way or the other if the mod/game's popularity would increase, stay the same or worsen, only assume. The main reason I would like FF to use Wsw/CPMA engine is for gameplay reasons. The mod won't likely make a change this big at this point in development, so I guess this thread is a bit pointless Just felt like discussing it.

I think arQon would have a stroke if he saw someone put CPMA as the same as Warsow.

Anyway, I'm sticking with mod popularity being a matter of player base, word of mouth, and fun first and foremost. Don't you guys know any friends who bought game xyz just for mod zyx?

[Beef Eater]

Originally Posted by Dexter

I think arQon would have a stroke if he saw someone put CPMA as the same as Warsow.

Sorry, I didn't mean the two are the same, just that they both use good engines made for a similiar game concept. I heard they have comparable netcode, as well, though I admit I never did play CPMA personally.

Originally Posted by Dexter

Anyway, I'm sticking with mod popularity being a matter of player base, word of mouth, and fun first and foremost. Don't you guys know any friends who bought game xyz just for mod zyx?

Yeah I agree and I can see your point, I just believe being standalone would mean more potential players.
Many mainstream gamers have already made up their minds that "Why try FF when I can play the real thing, TF2?" It's ignorant, but that's the nature of the mainstream. Being a Source Fortress mod automatically leads to that association and I think that's part of the lacking amount of pub players... Also, better netcode=more fun....

Originally Posted by Elmo

hah, despite your conclusion I was still quite happy to see it brought up and discussed as it was. So thank you

From a completely non-tech, onlooker point of view I agree with you! Or even if its just for EU games so I could stop saying "the Turks have laghax again!"

I just don't get why the Turks are so hard to hit!!

Some conclusion it was, though I never know when to stop talking. Thanks for being so understanding, I know this discussion would piss me off if I was one of the devs...

[chilledsanity]

Really? 90% of FF players can't browse the web for mods/free games? I somehow doubt that. I also doubt 90% of FF players first saw the mod when they browsed the Steam mods list, but maybe I'm out of the loop when it comes to most Steam users' way of finding mods...

Here's more or less how I think a lot of people found the mod:

1. Mods for HL were HUGE. Sure mods were made for all sort of games, but nothing near the exposure level. At one time, Counter-Strike alone was one of the most played multiplayer games period. TFC got bundled with patches to Half-Life and got a crapload of exposure.

2. Many people played TFC and liked it.

3. Half-Life 2 came out with promise for new mods on a new engine.

4. A zillion mods get announced for Source, many of which are updates to old HL ones (even though many haven't seen the light of day).

5. People like me check every once and a while to see if TFC is being remade, information leads me here.

I didn't even realize ETF or Q3F existed until after FF's release. So I think using Source absolutely accounts for a lot of the playerbase (or former playerbase at least).

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I didn't even realize ETF or Q3F existed until after FF's release. So I think using Source absolutely accounts for a lot of the playerbase (or former playerbase at least).

Thats another thing that gets me - you have basically standalone mods like ETF (which are also very polished) but they're also completely dead

[Circuitous]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

1. Mods for HL were HUGE. Sure mods were made for all sort of games, but nothing near the exposure level. At one time, Counter-Strike alone was one of the most played multiplayer games period. TFC got bundled with patches to Half-Life and got a crapload of exposure.

Actually, TFC was the "#1 Online Action Game" before CS usurped the throne.

[Beef Eater]

Again, bump... Sorry, been busy with other things!

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Here's more or less how I think a lot of people found the mod:

1. Mods for HL were HUGE. Sure mods were made for all sort of games, but nothing near the exposure level. At one time, Counter-Strike alone was one of the most played multiplayer games period. TFC got bundled with patches to Half-Life and got a crapload of exposure.

2. Many people played TFC and liked it.

3. Half-Life 2 came out with promise for new mods on a new engine.

4. A zillion mods get announced for Source, many of which are updates to old HL ones (even though many haven't seen the light of day).

5. People like me check every once and a while to see if TFC is being remade, information leads me here.

True. Regardless, I think being a standalone game (and given a lot of exposure by the right sites) would mean a lot, it would open up the game for a much broader audience (and I guess some CPMA and Warsow players would be less intimidated to try it when it's not Source based)

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I didn't even realize ETF or Q3F existed until after FF's release. So I think using Source absolutely accounts for a lot of the playerbase (or former playerbase at least).

Originally Posted by Dexter

Thats another thing that gets me - you have basically standalone mods like ETF (which are also very polished) but they're also completely dead

Actually, you guys have a point there! I don't know the history of Q3F/ETF (wasn't around when they were active), but they are indeed very dead now, and ETF was kinda standalone (though not really).

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Actually, TFC was the "#1 Online Action Game" before CS usurped the throne.

Prove it.

[Circuitous]

Figures now that someone questions it I can't find any evidence to support me. I recall seeing the sticker on TFC retail boxes about a year before CS had them, but maybe I imagined it.