Dev. Journal: z0rt (2008-07-16)

FF_Team · 07-16-2008, 08:29 AM

With Regards To Updates And Fortress Forever 2.1

This post has been split up into 2 parts. The first is a short and sweet message, the second is a longer read, but has more information (and my personal feelings) I entreat you to read both (if possible).

I.
Please try to realize the amount of time that has been put into 2.1. This will not be the final patch to the game. If any single element does not work -- it can and will be fixed in future patches, just as problems found in 2.0 are being fixed with this release. I humbly ask-- saying it, however, can be taken two ways-- 1) you are in a position with no power, or 2) you are being condescending-- either way it damages the message. I ask the people to stop arguing amongst themselves. If there is a serious problem, talk to me. I don't want to make fool out of myself, and I'm sure you don't want to either. It only makes things worse.

II.
What, with computer woes still aplenty (ps Gator, Avira didn't work), it seems I've been dragged into this, albeit unfortunately. Many people seem to be complaining about the 'Hard Cap'. I'd like to address this as tactfully possible, so please don't misconstrue my words to be harsh or acerbic. If, per chance, I have not conveyed my message properly, it is not for you or anyone else to attack me or anyone else on the development team (coder, mapper, and what have you). Having said the aforementioned, let's get started with business.

First off, I have made it my personal goal to listen to each and everyone of you out there. Many of you know I have been an active listener. I have read your comments online and have done everything in my power to earnestly hear out the people. However, just because I listen to you does not give you the right to impose things on me or the development team. The dev team has a very hard time trying to do what we do. When people make posts and questionnaires that undermine us, it makes things even more difficult. Please refrain from making posts attacking our decisions.

It takes a lot of time from our ends to accomplish things. Some of you who've played TFC remember 1106 and the changes that were made. Some of you remember the STA rules about chop hopping in TFC as well. There are times when as individuals, we cannot agree with the changes that are made to a game. Yet, despite these changes, it is our duty to silently acquiesce (agree) to the decisions and choices that were made by those above us. This doesn't mean that you ought to shut your traps, this means that we ought to take our time before we protest. Simply put, certain people in the community have been protesting changes that they haven't physically-- and I use this word liberally, mind you-- experienced any of these changes.

It is our goal to make FF 2.1 as friendly as possible. Let's not argue here. My own personal agenda-- and on that note, my own opinions-- are my own (and my own only). Each of us have our own opinions, and I will respect your opinions, even if we don't meet eye-to-eye on some things. Any qualms I have are to be addressed by those of equal caliber, meaning that if I have a beef with something, I will discuss it with the dev team, not you.

Let's not argue here. A lot of time has been put into 2.1 already. Before anyone protests, first give it a chance. We can always make changes in 2.2. Let's not be hasty.

I ask the people to stop arguing amongst themselves. If there is a serious problem, talk to me. I don't want to make fool out of myself, and I'm sure you don't want to either. It only makes things worse.

**squeek.** · 07-16-2008, 08:30 AM

Yeah.

Circuitous · 07-16-2008, 08:31 AM

We could just shut these forums down...

Nezumi · 07-16-2008, 08:43 AM

But this is where I live!

Ihmhi · 07-16-2008, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nezumi

But this is where I live!

Whoa, Circ is posting on Nezumi's account?

**squeek.** · 07-16-2008, 08:52 AM

It's a mods-only party! Hey!

yeah -Geo

GeoKill-----> · 07-16-2008, 08:55 AM

Well said

**Elmo** · 07-16-2008, 09:09 AM

And on that day, peace spread throughout the land...

Nezumi · 07-16-2008, 09:33 AM

No, me and circ are roommates.

...I smell a sitcom.

!nF3D4L · 07-16-2008, 03:15 PM

almost brought a tear to my eye. very very very well said

KubeDawg · 07-16-2008, 03:45 PM

Goodness, I didn't realize discussing the hard cap would cause this big problem. I'm glad it's being discussed, but I agree we all should watch what we say and how we say it. Not censorship, but I'm just saying, if most people are against the hard cap, convey that in a positive message so the devs don't have to look like forum nazi's deleting topics and such. I've made it a goal to discuss the hard cap as much as possible with the beta team and the devs before it's implemented because I feel it's such a big change that it needs to be addressed thoroughly.

I'm in agreement with most of the changes being made in 2.1, but this seems to be the only thing I disagree with, and I don't think that's a problem. The more we talk about these changes, the more it becomes clear on separating the actual changes from the proposed ideas that could potentially make people angry. I mean, what if some of these changes that are made cause big problems with the current community? How are we to know if something will work or not, until we try it? But on the same note, how can we just add something to the game that in my mind already has had the potential to cause problems(Pre FF, really refering to TFC)? If something is implemented that fails, then everyone has to wait for the NEXT patch to be released before that is fixed.

So, how can anything get done? Things like polls can be created to give a more accurate representation of the opinions of most of the community, moreso than a simple discussion.

Anywho, I will continue to protest this new proposed hard cap to the rest of the beta/dev team, because I feel that's the only way to get things done, plus, I truly care about this mod. I feel like it's in my blood, and although I've not contributed much to the mod, not nearly as much as most of the devs, I feel like I'm a part of it, and will continue to discuss this issue until everyone can come to an agreement.

Titan` · 07-16-2008, 04:54 PM

You speak english, z0rt? So do I!

teh_rape · 07-16-2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

insert lots of stuff here

The only thing that I have to say is that I too hated the hard cap.... at first.
When I heard about it I was like any other non-beta tester is now, hated the idea. The problem is they don't know how it plays.

to sum things up, before I really gave it a try I hated the idea of a hard cap.
After playing 2.1 with a hard cap on, I enjoy it much more than 2.0

KubeDawg · 07-16-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teh_rape

The only thing that I have to say is that I too hated the hard cap.... at first.
When I heard about it I was like any other non-beta tester is now, hated the idea. The problem is they don't know how it plays.

to sum things up, before I really gave it a try I hated the idea of a hard cap.
After playing 2.1 with a hard cap on, I enjoy it much more than 2.0

I'm going to set something up with a few people, try a few values w/o hard cap, and see how 2.1 plays with those settings.

color43 · 07-16-2008, 06:03 PM

What is 'hard cap' exactly?

bokko · 07-16-2008, 07:05 PM

It's when the enemy defence is extremely tight and you have to struggle a great amount in order to bring it back safely to your base and capture it.

Desyphur · 07-16-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bokko

It's when the enemy defence is extremely tight and you have to struggle a great amount in order to bring it back safely to your base and capture it.

Good confusion there...

It's a movement cap...that's about all I know

Lynus · 07-16-2008, 07:20 PM

i'd like to apologize to the dev team, the beta testers, and anyone else who has put a lot of time into this great mod(mappers too! ricey i <3 u). i admit that my poll yesterday was biased and loaded, and i'm sorry if i stirred up the community. all i know is that i enjoy playin ff in its entirety right now, and will continue playing. the current version 2.0 is fun, its challenging, it's fast - it's my cup of tea. i expressed how i felt and wanted to share it with everyone in the community as well.

let me reassure anyone who may have been influenced with my post/poll that the development and beta team have earned my trust in this issue. unfortunately i'm not in beta for this game, therefore i can only assume how it plays. again i apologize for my basis or lack there of on version 2.1

z0rt · 07-17-2008, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titan`

You speak english, z0rt? So do I!

American English or British English?

**squeek.** · 07-17-2008, 03:41 AM

The Hard Cap Explained:
http://www.fortress-forever.com/foru...ad.php?t=16575

07-16-2008, 08:29 AM	#1
FF_Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Nov 1999 Posts Rated Helpful 71 Times	Dev. Journal: z0rt (2008-07-16) With Regards To Updates And Fortress Forever 2.1 This post has been split up into 2 parts. The first is a short and sweet message, the second is a longer read, but has more information (and my personal feelings) I entreat you to read both (if possible). I. Please try to realize the amount of time that has been put into 2.1. This will not be the final patch to the game. If any single element does not work -- it can and will be fixed in future patches, just as problems found in 2.0 are being fixed with this release. I humbly ask-- saying it, however, can be taken two ways-- 1) you are in a position with no power, or 2) you are being condescending-- either way it damages the message. I ask the people to stop arguing amongst themselves. If there is a serious problem, talk to me. I don't want to make fool out of myself, and I'm sure you don't want to either. It only makes things worse. II. What, with computer woes still aplenty (ps Gator, Avira didn't work), it seems I've been dragged into this, albeit unfortunately. Many people seem to be complaining about the 'Hard Cap'. I'd like to address this as tactfully possible, so please don't misconstrue my words to be harsh or acerbic. If, per chance, I have not conveyed my message properly, it is not for you or anyone else to attack me or anyone else on the development team (coder, mapper, and what have you). Having said the aforementioned, let's get started with business. First off, I have made it my personal goal to listen to each and everyone of you out there. Many of you know I have been an active listener. I have read your comments online and have done everything in my power to earnestly hear out the people. However, just because I listen to you does not give you the right to impose things on me or the development team. The dev team has a very hard time trying to do what we do. When people make posts and questionnaires that undermine us, it makes things even more difficult. Please refrain from making posts attacking our decisions. It takes a lot of time from our ends to accomplish things. Some of you who've played TFC remember 1106 and the changes that were made. Some of you remember the STA rules about chop hopping in TFC as well. There are times when as individuals, we cannot agree with the changes that are made to a game. Yet, despite these changes, it is our duty to silently acquiesce (agree) to the decisions and choices that were made by those above us. This doesn't mean that you ought to shut your traps, this means that we ought to take our time before we protest. Simply put, certain people in the community have been protesting changes that they haven't physically-- and I use this word liberally, mind you-- experienced any of these changes. It is our goal to make FF 2.1 as friendly as possible. Let's not argue here. My own personal agenda-- and on that note, my own opinions-- are my own (and my own only). Each of us have our own opinions, and I will respect your opinions, even if we don't meet eye-to-eye on some things. Any qualms I have are to be addressed by those of equal caliber, meaning that if I have a beef with something, I will discuss it with the dev team, not you. Let's not argue here. A lot of time has been put into 2.1 already. Before anyone protests, first give it a chance. We can always make changes in 2.2. Let's not be hasty. I ask the people to stop arguing amongst themselves. If there is a serious problem, talk to me. I don't want to make fool out of myself, and I'm sure you don't want to either. It only makes things worse.

07-16-2008, 08:30 AM	#2
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	Yeah. __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington

07-16-2008, 08:31 AM	#3
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	We could just shut these forums down... __________________ Look at all those dead links.

07-16-2008, 08:43 AM	#4
Nezumi Retired FF Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals. Class/Position: Soldier, O Gametype: Doubble Mode Affiliations: Cassiotone Nation Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	But this is where I live! __________________ TG: pretty much you have no idea how much i fuckin own at this game. TG: i bested no less than three flaming tornados and broke a huge wizard.

07-16-2008, 08:52 AM	#6
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	It's a mods-only party! Hey! yeah -Geo __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington Last edited by GeoKill----->; 07-16-2008 at 08:59 AM.

07-16-2008, 08:55 AM	#7
GeoKill-----> Community Member Server Owner Beta Tester Forum Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hawthorne, California Class/Position: Soldier/Spy/Scout Gametype: AvD Affiliations: :e0:Eternal Order Leader Posts Rated Helpful 12 Times	Well said __________________ Fortress-Forever Guides All Your Mapping Needs :e0: Will live on Forever Support FF:

07-16-2008, 09:09 AM	#8
Elmo Gets tickled by FF Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: UK Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times	And on that day, peace spread throughout the land... __________________ Support FF: Done: ff_monkey Done: ff_bases Done: ff_warpath Forever Doing: ff_medieval (beta#99999999)

07-16-2008, 09:33 AM	#9
Nezumi Retired FF Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals. Class/Position: Soldier, O Gametype: Doubble Mode Affiliations: Cassiotone Nation Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	No, me and circ are roommates. ...I smell a sitcom. __________________ TG: pretty much you have no idea how much i fuckin own at this game. TG: i bested no less than three flaming tornados and broke a huge wizard.

07-16-2008, 03:45 PM	#11
KubeDawg Nade Whore Server Owner Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Oklahoma Class/Position: Scout/Soldier Gametype: CTF/TDM Affiliations: blunt. Moto Posts Rated Helpful 128 Times	Goodness, I didn't realize discussing the hard cap would cause this big problem. I'm glad it's being discussed, but I agree we all should watch what we say and how we say it. Not censorship, but I'm just saying, if most people are against the hard cap, convey that in a positive message so the devs don't have to look like forum nazi's deleting topics and such. I've made it a goal to discuss the hard cap as much as possible with the beta team and the devs before it's implemented because I feel it's such a big change that it needs to be addressed thoroughly. I'm in agreement with most of the changes being made in 2.1, but this seems to be the only thing I disagree with, and I don't think that's a problem. The more we talk about these changes, the more it becomes clear on separating the actual changes from the proposed ideas that could potentially make people angry. I mean, what if some of these changes that are made cause big problems with the current community? How are we to know if something will work or not, until we try it? But on the same note, how can we just add something to the game that in my mind already has had the potential to cause problems(Pre FF, really refering to TFC)? If something is implemented that fails, then everyone has to wait for the NEXT patch to be released before that is fixed. So, how can anything get done? Things like polls can be created to give a more accurate representation of the opinions of most of the community, moreso than a simple discussion. Anywho, I will continue to protest this new proposed hard cap to the rest of the beta/dev team, because I feel that's the only way to get things done, plus, I truly care about this mod. I feel like it's in my blood, and although I've not contributed much to the mod, not nearly as much as most of the devs, I feel like I'm a part of it, and will continue to discuss this issue until everyone can come to an agreement. __________________ Moto's Funhouse \| Dallas, TX - 74.91.114.247:27015 ff_plunder - Complete

07-16-2008, 04:54 PM	#12
Titan` Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	You speak english, z0rt? So do I!

07-16-2008, 06:03 PM	#15
color43 FF Player D&A Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	What is 'hard cap' exactly?

07-16-2008, 07:05 PM	#16
bokko when ff will out? D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	It's when the enemy defence is extremely tight and you have to struggle a great amount in order to bring it back safely to your base and capture it.

07-16-2008, 07:20 PM	#18
Lynus I like Ceyx Beta Tester Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: MI Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times	my apologies i'd like to apologize to the dev team, the beta testers, and anyone else who has put a lot of time into this great mod(mappers too! ricey i <3 u). i admit that my poll yesterday was biased and loaded, and i'm sorry if i stirred up the community. all i know is that i enjoy playin ff in its entirety right now, and will continue playing. the current version 2.0 is fun, its challenging, it's fast - it's my cup of tea. i expressed how i felt and wanted to share it with everyone in the community as well. let me reassure anyone who may have been influenced with my post/poll that the development and beta team have earned my trust in this issue. unfortunately i'm not in beta for this game, therefore i can only assume how it plays. again i apologize for my basis or lack there of on version 2.1 __________________ hef

07-17-2008, 03:41 AM	#20
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	The Hard Cap Explained: http://www.fortress-forever.com/foru...ad.php?t=16575 __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington Last edited by squeek.; 07-17-2008 at 05:26 AM.

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